Taking a closer look at AI's supposed energy apocalypse
arstechnica.com
arstechnica.com
Now the problem is that if someone puts a $10/month price on the AI functionality, they will stop paying for it because it doesn't really have a $10/month ROI.
Literally every AI thing I've seen people use has got an interest taper off way before the free trial even ends.
The constraining factor will prevent an energy apocalypse: It doesn't materially improve most people's lives at all.
And 10$ isn't an awful lot of money to justify. It's like half an hour a month (and like a smoke break's worth of salary in silicon valley lol)
I think AI has its uses. I just think they are overblown and applied too widely. There's a few things it's really good at. And in those cases it will shine. The rest is hype.
But, people are spending shocking sums on these products. They need to make a vast sum to pay back what they've spent, and that sort of income can't cover it.
What about all the people here who were claiming GPT-4 had become an essential part of their developer job?
They seem to have gone quiet recently, but they must still be here.
1. At some point it generated something that cost the business money. Happened to us. Direct root-cause analysis lead to ChatGPT generated code not being aware of the correct way to handle a transaction. First this took out stuff due to leaving transactions open. Then after that was fixed by someone who didn't know what they were doing, it turned out that the scope of the transaction was wrong which caused invisible data loss when a rollback occurred.
2. The free trial ended and no one wanted to pay for it.
Midjourney, Suno, Copilot, ChatGPT, Jasper, Luma, etc would all like a word with you.
I think the real problem here is that the barrier of entry to start a new "AI thing" is so low, you're often flooded with subpar services that give more recency bias toward "every AI thing I've seen people use has got an interest taper off way before the free trial even ends".
The alternative is regulation, which, I'm not even sure how it could be used to address this particular issue. Ban AI or crypto? Humans will find new ways to waste vast amounts of energy with computers. Require that computers have a certain efficiency rating of megaflops/joules? People will use more of this now far more efficient computing, resulting in more overall usage. Require corporations to be audited for energy efficiency and be certified? Goodbye all small players that cannot handle all the overhead of such legislation.
Mandating domestically owned servers is commonplace.
And this was in response to someone whose best idea was “ban ai”
How about tax the carbon emissions.
The other issue that comes up with green generation is how variable it is, sometimes it'll be cloudy and still air, others will be windy and sunny, and the grid needs to capable of supplying everyone in both scenarios and not overbuilding generation they can't turn off. Having industries available to soak up an appropriate amount of energy available within their ecosystem would be great, but it's a hard sell to anyone to invest billions in sites where there could be no guarantees on utilization if they get bad weather for a few months. If there is any "plays nicely with others" regulation on consumption of a common resource, it's going to be reactive to problems than ahead of time.
It helps that the actual electrical generators don't care where the steam is coming from, so we could be leveraging the gensets from decommissioned coal plants in fission reactors. All that's missing is the political will.
Higher Consumption also drives investments to generate Higher Supply and hence future surplus and improvements in standard of living.
Economic problems are rarely just economic problems, and saying that it will resolve itself in the long term is dismissive and offers no value to the discussion.
There’s always an impact. If you had a sandwich for lunch, the wheat in the bread destroyed a grassland somewhere.
Usually in context of energy, we’re talking about carbon impact.
You might mean the storage to keep those data centers running throughout the night though and yeah. But this problem is not very big in the scope of other battery challenges like transportation. Because for data centers you don't need the best energy per weight or volume which you do need in a car.
And there's other sources of renewable energy too.
If we have a coal plant and add one wind farm we still have one coal plant.
I suppose it's fair to say energy demand will always go up, and if all new energy creation is renewable then when you extrapolate to a limit the amount of energy from non-renewable sources is an infinitely small percentage of all energy production? I don't know if that is a fair way to model the future though.
As long as you're not driving demand up faster than the industry is able to increase its rate of scaling (which doesn't yet seem the case with AI, though that's not to say it couldn't be at some point), this should help a renewable transition.
Another effect is that you push issues that arise in transition earlier. For example, the sooner you have a lot of solar on the grid, the sooner grid-scale batteries are incentivized, and the sooner battery production scales. This feeds back into the feasibility and profitability of replacing existing nonrenewable sources.
A simple example where this effect is very clear is synthetic fuels. Synthetics don't compete on a dollar-for-dollar basis yet, but from an energy basis they're getting close. There's an obvious demand phase change once you hit that price point, and the sooner you hit it the better. If you believe the scaling trends, and I think you broadly should, more solar brings that point forward and so is clearly environmentally beneficial.
Emissions from burning the fuel had been ignored but will now need to be taken into account.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/2...
A (hypothetical) AI that can perform any intellectual labour at for an energy cost of 1 kWh to produce output at the quality and quantity levels of a median human working for an hour, at $0.1/kWh is going to be a better economic choice than 50% of humans on earth even if those humans cut their wage demands to the UN abject poverty threshold.
But at the same time, there's not (currently) enough electricity for 50% of the world's people to be replaced by such AI regardless of the price.
Thus energy prices rise until the machine labour is as expensive as the human labour.
But that likely results in a lot of people even above that threshold no longer being able to afford to keep the lights on.
If we only get this AI quality/cost/generality level around 2031-ish, that may be fine, because renewables are on an exponential growth curve and around then exceed current global demand all by themselves.
> A similar trend will likely guide the use of generative AI as a whole, with the energy invested in AI servers tracking the economic utility society as a whole sees from the technology.
This comparison is inappropriate. Cryptocurrency was and is mainly an object of speculation, not of intrinsic economic value. I'm contrast, AI has clearly a lot of economic value, and that value increases with time, since it gets better with time.
Moreover, the rate of improvement over the last few years have been staggering. Things that seemed far out of reach science fiction technology ten years ago are now unremarkable reality. So there are solid empirical grounds to expect that progress in the coming 10 years will be transformative as well. Nothing like that was or is the case for cryptocurrency.
It's clear it has some economic value. It's not yet clear if it has a lot of it.
So far the only economic value it has has been inflation the valuation and stock of any company that has word AI in it
Those are just a few things off the top of my head, and we're already talking millions if not billions of dollars in actual value, actual services rendered to society with zero speculation involved.
Nothing snake oily here.
Also: What compiler are you using that's giving you false positive warnings?
I have never heard of a false positive warning nor error from a compiler, but perhaps you're using some weird tooling I'm not familiar with?
So, some economic value. BTW are those companies profitable at all? Or are they like Uber: losing billions of dollars every year with no chance of ever turning a profit?
Though I will agree that decades-old and decades-long research into computer vision and traffic modelling is finally paying off a bit in automotive industry.
> AI to detect and fix bugs in code, and at least one that is currently experimenting
So, unverifiable claims and experiments
> Those are just a few things off the top of my head
Those "few things" are exactly two things, and are evidence of some highly disputable economic value. Not evidence of a lot of economic value.
> So, some economic value. BTW are those companies profitable at all? Or are they like Uber: losing billions of dollars every year with no chance of ever turning a profit?
AI taxis mean that there are no wages for the driver. The AI driver is basically a slave. The cost of developing the AI may be quite high, or the increased cost for the cars (more sensors), but those things probably scale better than wages for us humans.
i say this is not correct.
What is "intrinsic" value? I argue that if people want it, then it has intrinsic value.
calling it money is no insult.
In other words, what you’re arguing is “if it has extrinsic value, then it has intrinsic value”. Which would break the point of the distinction.
Intrinsic value is the exact opposite of what you’re saying, it’s something having value by itself.
Well of course if you're trying to beat the SOTA, bigger sizes allow for better models, but not everyone is trying to use or train the latest SOTA model, maybe llama-3 8b is perfect for what you need to do and having better optimizations to run it locally is gold.
Does AI even use more energy than crypto ever did? Doubtful.
Besides, we're projected to ingest all of humanity's written knowledge by 2026, and after that there will be a cliff in power consumption, we will mostly switch to inference on purpose built hardware, which is vastly more efficient.
Does this claim presuppose that people will forever be content to use a circa 2026 ML model? If so, that seems unlikely to me.
More is more.
All the products and services based on it like Microsoft's many copilots are totally beta quality and not really ready for the mainstream. In a couple years they probably will be and I'm sure the usage will have increased tenfold.
On the other hand I'm sure many optimisations in hardware have been accomplished. But I don't think it can be compared to bitcoin which is a more mature technology (as much as one can call a disorganised macro-economic experiment mature)
while there is value and money-grifting involved in both crypto and genAI, there is a major differentiating factor between the wastage argument - artificially-adjusted proof of work, which is/was used for major cryptocurrencies.
people spend time and energy (figuratively and literally) on the internet on many ways one could define as wastefully (take scrolling down the "for you" feed for example). but for majority of cases, the "efficiencies" or their lack of are not done intentionally and are often improved on (e.g. new codecs like AV1 needing less bandwidth).
but to make crypto tokens work, the original decision of using PoW has led to a massive surge of energy consumption to achieve the same results. while there might be some work on countering its negatives (e.g. with eth network), it is still a major driving force, despite an arms race to make more efficient hardware.
while a lot of current AI has major inefficiencies (will be too long to list down here!), the root cause is often the fast-moving innovations and everyone building on someone's imperfect work.
coming back to the original argument, you should expect more dedicated hardware to do the underlying matrix multiplications to make AI work. for most people who would only care about inference, it is already becoming a reality at consumer level. but expect people to push the new stuff to its limit to stay competitive, whether you find all of this ridiculous or not.
I get it, GenAI became popular as a consumer-facing product and tech industry PR blitz in that year. But people in the tech world should know better. AI as massive industry-wide GPGPU workload took off in the 2010s, including widespread usage of smaller models like CNNs throughout both FAANG's stack and in scattered startups, as well as supermodels used as recommendation engines by everyone and their grandma. Arguably the entire business models of every irresponsibly large tech company ran on this shit. All the telemetry. Ad targeting. Social Media feeds. Hell, GPT-3 came out before 2020. It was a scandal in this world when OpenAI exclusively licensed it to Microsoft, who was already probably using it in search at that point. None of this was actually that long ago, this is way too soon to have cultural amnesia. I get that I'm in somewhat of a bubble as an AI researcher but surely tech publications should at least know these basic facts, right? Is this yet another reason to be annoyed at the 2010s lingo for calling all these pervasive neural networks "the algorithms"?
From the perspective of energy expenditure from AI workloads, the statement that it's a major driving force of the rising energy demands of datacenters is a perfectly reasonable conclusion given a graph where the TWH more than triples between 2012 and 2024. The article sometimes specifies "generative AI" (which did exist in 2012, but was in a way less interesting state for most people and businesses until 2022), but often just says "AI", which is a big umbrella term people have at least consistently been using for most neural networks for that entire span of time (and longer, and for lots of other things, and it's hopelessly overloaded to the point of being nonsensical sometimes, but regardless this is an incredibly uncontroversial usage). So someone at a data center with a graph that basically tracks the rise of GPGPU neural networks and shows a big jump in energy expenditure over that period attributing this to "AI" is very reasonable!
For instance:
Visits to amazon.com grew from 615 million annual visitors in 2008,[46] to more than 2 billion per month in 2022.[47] The e-commerce platform is the 14th most visited website in the world.[48]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_(company)#Products_and_...
I'm not fingering Amazon specifically as the culprit but when you say "algorithm" in that sense, as you point out, I'm thinking of recommender systems and Amazon's must be one of the er scaliest; probably together with Meta, and I guess Netflix. Doesn't have to be on GPUs either. CPUs need power too.
Second, how do environmentalists accelerate climate change? I honestly don't get that.
I'm sure some environmentalists have a high footprint sure (thinking of Al Gore private jetting all over the world). But I'm also sure my footprint is a lot smaller than my peers'
One or two private jets are irrelevant but pushing for bad policy and opposing good policy places them firmly on the other side. It’s all right. Their time is maybe another decade. Then we roll the whole thing back and get to fixing this world without the opinions of these people who want to ruin the only planet we have so far.
You’re free to disagree with the policies and results of environmentalist actions and even argue that they’re having an undesired effect, but saying environmentalists want to ruin the planet is nonsensical. Anyone who desires that is by definition not an environmentalist.
“Environmentalism” is a concept. An organisation called The Environmentalist Society for the Betterment of Puppies and Rainbows could be a nefarious river polluter while another called The Very Bad Toxic Wastelands could be a philanthropic conversationalist which plants forests. An environmentalist is someone acts in the best interest of the environment, regardless of what they call themselves.
But as most wide interest groups, environmentalists are not a homogeneous community. There is no general 'agenda' even though subgroups might have one. I'm sure there's subgroups that use environmentalism as a false flag to further their own goals.
I'm personally against nuclear as I feel it externalises the problems into the future (waste management) which is exactly how we got into this situation we are in now. But I'm very much in favour of really renewable energy and public transport instead of private cars.