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Comment by walthamstow | Hacker News Reader

This isn't Singapore anything, it's just competent local government.

That's kind of like saying, "This isn't Space-X anything, it's just private space travel." Singapore is the canonical example of competent local government. That is the whole point.

The listed examples are very mediocre compared to Singapore though. Truthfully the US has no square mile of land that is comparable to the demographics and infrastructure of Singapore.

On the other hand, Singapore has some significant civil liberties issues. I think it's plausible that it may be better to accept somewhat less efficiency than Singapore in exchange for greater civil liberties.

Singapore as the benchmark for "competent local government" seems flawed. Ignoring decades of corruption incidents[1], it's also plagued with human rights abuses, including significant volumes of human trafficking[2]. As a nation-state, it's still extremely enthusiastic about draconian punishments and the death penalty. The state is full of moral decay; worst of all, its former prime minister is reading about Haskell in his semi-retirement[3]. The latter example of moral decay is not unique to Singapore (he is not the only senior national government official to decline into Haskell usage in Southeast Asia), but it is not a good sign of national health.

There are better "canonical examples" of competent local government, like Zurich, Geneva, or Vienna. All of which are generally rated higher in HDI than Singapore, none of which have the death penalty, and none of which have government officials who are Haskell programmers.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Singapore#Notabl...

2: https://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/singapore/

3: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/05/prime...

Functional programmers ruining cities as well as codebases.

I had the same questioning reading about haskell in this thread.

And my search tool is so biased by past searchs that it won't tell me what else haskell means.

You got me. Normally, I downvote these Reddit-type of comments, but this comment just has too much bloody wit. And, I say that with no hate for functional programming concepts.

>“Functional programmers ruining cities as well as codebases.”

The information [and communication] technology {I.[C.]T.} boom at the beginning of the millenium & especially at the beginning of the 2010s – where you've had banks, investment firms, and angel investors just throwing away their money to anything relating to computing, communications, hardware, and software – had two aims that are publicly known: quantum computing and machine-learning technology (later known as artificial intelligence).

They figured out quantum computing sometime in the ±2015. Machine-learning, A.I., took a bit longer but it's here – confirmed at the beginning of the 2020s.

Now, I.T. has served its original mission and it's relegated to maintenance & routine work for the [already] existing infrastructure.

Self-serving, self-important, self-fulfilling prophecy; who knew!?

Hong Kong used to be pretty good. Government services were quite efficient. Business friendly. Excellent healthcare. Low taxes. Low crime rate. All of Singapore's positives minus the negatives. Not sure how it is these days.

I would say from personal experience in Hongkong, that during the transition from a multi-party democracy to a single party state, the gov't services (minus the police and protest-related judges/courts) still remains excellent. The day to day workings are still extremely functional and efficient.

That said, the excitment about "low taxes" in Hongkong is mostly misguided. Yes, the max is 15% of your total income, but you basically get nothing except an (admittedly world-class) international airport and metro system. Public health care? You will never use it. You wrote: "Excellent healthcare". Sure, the private hospitals where your private health care insurance pays for services are excellent. Public schools? You will never use them. Public pension (retirement)? What a laugh -- you will be poor. Even the police are very lazy unless they are already present when the crime occurs. One weird bright spot: Public housing is very decent, but again, you will never use it. So really, what are you getting for 15% tax rate? Not much. If you are upper middle class and above, and are comfortable to watch elderly people in your neighborhood collect aluminium cans or cardboard for recycle-for-cash, then you will be fine paying for these essential life services from your handsome earnings. However, you will be surrounded by many very low income people. It is not a low tax paradise. My motto: "Hongkong isn't rich, but rich people do live there."

An anecdote about gov't staff efficiency: I will never forget the day that I applied for an international driver's license. I handed over my regular, local (HK) driver's license to the staff. He said nothing, but began to frantically fill forms at his desk. After about a minute, I was confused and asked, "Is there an issue?" "Oh nothing too big. Your [Chinese] name was changed, but you never applied for an updated driver's license. I have filled all the forms for you. You only need to sign here." The craziest part: On paper (if I recall correctly), there are relatively draconian rules about updating your driver's license in X days if your name or address changes.

EDIT

You wrote:

    > Low crime rate.

To be clear, all of northeast Asia has very low crime rates: Mainland China, China, Macau, Hongkong, Taiwan, South & North Korea, and Japan. This is a complex issue that could be the subject of multiple PhDs. I doubt it has anything to do with a high quality police force.

> Zurich, Geneva

It's easy to govern a town in a competent-looking fashion when you have plenty of money to spend, and it's easy to have plenty of money to spend when you decide to close your eyes to the source of the cash flowing into your vaults.

Singapore is more guilty of that than Switzerland. Singaporean banks are the post-FATCA Swiss banks.

>“Singaporean banks are the post-FATCA Swiss banks.”

What does that even mean?

Swiss banks largely don't exist in the way they did in the 1990s and prior because of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (an American regulation almost universally agreed to be overreaching and violating the sovereignty of other countries); privacy is only guaranteed to Swiss nationals, and they automatically share information with external governments. These days, if you want to be secretive about your banking but park assets in a stable country, you go to Singapore.

>There are better "canonical examples" of competent local government, like Zurich, Geneva

When was the last time you were in Geneva? It deteriorates with each passing year. Homeless druggies on Rue du Rhone were not possible even 5 years ago, now they are there every 50 metres. The worst part is that now, during the summer, the ambient weed smell mixes with the evaporation from the lake to produce a truly obnoxious atmosphere.

> Singapore as the benchmark for "competent local government" seems flawed.

That may well be, but taking issue with the headline's factuality is different than declaring it to be nonsensical, which is what the GP was essentially saying.

> none of which have government officials who are Haskell programmers

Haskell is just an aspiration. The language he is known to command is C++, or rather C, because from a cursory look I'm not seeing any C++ features being used here :)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2G2LjIu7WbdUzY4UWw3MWp6UXc...

If you read the article, he notes that after he retires, he's got a book on Haskell he's going to read. He retired from the Prime Minister position earlier this year. His aspiration is becoming his reality as we speak.

Not in Wikipedia: how the Singapore ruling party also appoints their most loyal members to high-paying political positions ($660k/year), where nobody really knows what the role is about [1].

Many loyal members also get cushy directorship and leadership appointments to state-controlled companies [2], labour associations [3], and non-profits [4].

Some of these are up-and-coming MPs in need of resume padding, others are election losers that still need to maintain their million-dollar lifestyles.

Cronyism at its finest.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/askSingapore/comments/zt9arh/genuin...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/i2bnzz/how_does_...

[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/hqwy72/ntuc_reaf...

[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/10ypl6c/before_j...

Great post with lots of good links.

Yeah, no kidding. PM Lee's wife, HO Ching is head of Temasek. It is ridiculous. That place is run like an Asian family business -- so much nepotism.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Ching

> nobody really knows what the role is about

I Googled this question out of curiosity, and found an informative explanation here: https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/j1ofba/comment/g...

Also, Singapore (as well as Zurich and Geneva) is where it is through plain fiscal dumping. Which won't work if everyone does it. It turns growth into a zero sum game, where you grow through sucking other's wealth.

Singapore and Switzerland are successful parasites.

While I agree with some of this post, I am confused this by this part:

    > The state is full of moral decay

What do you mean? And can you provide some clear examples?

I do think many people here are not aware of the political situation in Singapore. On the surface, it is a multi-party democracy. However, looking deeper, you will see the majority party has always been the same since independence from Malaysia: The People's Action Party (PAP). (Man, that party name has such a distopian vibe to it, like a political party name from the original Blade Runner film!) Also, freedom of speech (and media) is incredibly weak -- in name only, similar to Mainland China (and now Hongkong). And, they have very strong libel laws that the gov't frequently uses against critics.

> What do you mean? And can you provide some clear examples?

On top of the things you listed?

Genital mutilation is common and accepted. Sex trafficking is common. Politicians are extremely nepotistic. Politicians are Haskell programmers. They outright murder people convicted of certain crimes. Conversion therapy is legal. Children are not allowed to view content with LGBT people in it. That's just scratching the surface; it is similar to the UAE in that it gets an unreasonably high HDI spot for how few human rights and how little decency it actually respects.

Politicians are Haskell programmers

Sorry if I am being dumb, why is this a bad thing?

I admire your sincere attempt at engaging with this person. I genuinely cannot tell whether he/she is a troll.

- Do you have a reference for 'Genital mutilation is common and accepted'? It seems it only occurs in a minority of the also-minority 15% Muslim group, along with male circumcision. Obviously not great, but phrasing is dramatic. - 'outright murder people convicted of certain crimes' - this is commonly known as the death penalty, which many developed countries unfortunately still practice. The phrasing is certainly dramatic. - Certainly agree re LGBT. They decriminalized male intercourse recently (though this is more symbolic since it was never prosecuted) so there's progress - it is still a conservative Asian society but seems like leaning Western liberal over time.

You realize that is actually a very short list of corruption scandals - 12 over 55 years; and that they were investigated and prosecuted? The list of countries with stronger corruption records is short - this is not a great point to start your argument. And while it's certainly not the best in terms of human trafficking, it still has lower rates than most other developed Western European nations, and the US. I share equal disgust on the Haskell issue, of course.

Taking on debt loads with the expectation that future generations of your city will pay it off is not, in my opinion, ‘competent local government’.

Again, I wish them the best of luck, but philosophically I am an old line conservative. The fiscal kind, not the Jesus freak kind. I’ve seen this end badly before, and have seen no evidence to indicate this time will end any differently. But again, I’m happy to be proven wrong and hope they pull through. (Or rather, I guess I hope their children pull through.)

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