Hacker News Reader

Comment by rayiner | Hacker News Reader

> According to the International Energy Agency, fewer than 1 in 10 households in Europe has air conditioning, and the numbers in Paris are lower than that. The study said that of the 1.6 billion AC units in use across the globe in 2016, more than half were in China (570 million) and the United States (375 million). The entire European Union had around 100 million

Lee Kuan Yew attributed the success of Singaporean government to the invention of AC: https://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8278085/singapore-lee-kuan-yew.... I wonder if the widespread lack of air conditioning in Europe is part of the reason Northern European and Scandinavian countries are more efficient and organized than Mediterranean European countries.

View on HN

> Wow. Europe is poor.

Edit : parent has since edited his message to something else, my reply was to his original comment, comprised strictly of what I quoted.

Wow, you lack knowledge of the matter? I wonder what makes you think it's a money thing, because it's not.

Even brand new homes built today may not have any AC, or only AC in a few specific pieces, simply be cause of the need: you didn't need AC at any time of the year before, a very hot day meant 35 degrees Celsius.

The need now comes from climate change and heatwave being more common and hitting harder, year after year.

As for the actual comment : I don't think your understand the difference between the traditional heat in Singapore and the Mediterranean heat, those are at two very different point of the scale...

Sorry for the edit—my initial reaction was based on climate control being a pretty baseline American standard. It looks like the historical average for Paris is still in the high 70s in the summer, which is a few degrees lower than Boston. But even before recent heatwaves, 90% of households in Boston had air conditioning: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/06/20/science/boston-summer....

Yes. Us euros are poor and dumb. The lack of AC, or HVAC, is a great example.

It's not about being poor. First, the climate didn't require AC in most of the Europe, until ~10 years ago. You had a few hot days, and that's it. Second, thermal isolation in the US is extremely bad quality. I think people could cut their AC usage by half if they had proper thermal isolation in their houses. Third, northern Europe countries still don't have a climate to justify buying an AC.

Specifically, American houses lack thermal mass due to being constructed mainly from wood. Concrete and brick will buffer over a week or so of heat before it warms up too much.

Thermal mass doesn't matter much because the air in a typical home is replaced every hour.

Any home with an ACH nat of 1 that's attempting to condition the air (heating or cooling) is wasting a mind boggling percentage of the energy. Surely that's not the natural ventilation rate of the _typical_ home? That would imply that 50% of homes are worse.

This reference suggests that the mean air change rate in southern europe is 1.1 +/- 0.8 ac/h. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265511654_Proportio....

But if it's hot air touching cool brick, won't the air cool down quicker than the brick warms up?

Do you live in a wind-tunnel?

The air inside is only a tiny fraction of a building's mass.

In Florida, most of the homes are built from concrete brick with wood trusses. There are apartments made from wood and concrete.

It’s not the heat completely - it is also the humidity. You can bear up to 80 F before it starts to feel uncomfortable. Humidity will make even 75F uncomfortable.

Ofc, as far south as Florida the absence of cold makes the buffer function of limited use. And indeed, humidity is even worse than heat.

We have high humidity in Europe as well. For example the average here in the Netherlands is 77% where in Florida it's 75% based on a quick Google.

Both regions have high humidity, but Florida tends to have higher average humidity levels, particularly in the summer months. Florida has a subtropical to tropical climate, characterized by high temperatures and humidity, especially in the summer. Florida experiences high humidity levels throughout the year, often ranging from 70% to 90%. Summer months are particularly humid, with frequent afternoon thunderstorms.

The Netherlands has a temperate maritime climate, influenced by the North Sea.

Florida and the Netherlands are not close in comparison.

I’m sorry, but it is just mind boggling to suggest that Netherlands and Florida have comparable weather in any sense. You wouldn’t suggest that the weather in Netherlands is as hot as in, say, Italy or Greece, and Florida is even hotter than these two.

I'm not saying it's as hot here as it is in Florida. But we've been breaking records left and right up to the point where I've purchased an AC (a crappy mobile one for lack of better options here for rented apartments) because we go through months every summer now where I can barely sleep without one anymore.

My point was that people often don't realize how humid it is here. You apparently also can't believe it. And how our buildings are not made to keep heat out, but rather in. So I expect many more ACs to be sold here as well in the coming years.

It might just be a month or two each year. And it might be worse for you. But it's also getting pretty bad here already thanks to climate change. And that's not going to improve anytime soon thanks to all of us.

Is it possible to build so that hear is kept in but not out? I sort of thought that heat flow was bidirectional.

Yes, mostly by using insulating (double) glass to let warmth in in the form of light that then warms up the interior. Think greenhouses. Surround that with poorly insulated walls and limited ventilation and in cold weather they'll leak out heat while in warm weather they'll also heat up in the sun and radiate that in.

Relative humidity isn't a great indicator of comfort. It's better to look at dew point. The Netherlands is not only cooler on average but also has a lower dew point. This shouldn't be surprising given each country's latitudes.

I would have thought than being in power for 40 years, being an island, and being in the post ww2 years (overall global growth, commerce growing but not globalization, China still weak,….) would be more important to Singapore’s fantastic evolution than AC…

interesting idea. the result is that singapore has two seasons:

indoors and outdoors

the downside is that for some buildings you need to bring a jacket because the AC is cooling just to much. when i lived in singapore we eventually just decided to get comfortable with the heat and humidity and rarely used the AC at home.

It’s the same in Malaysia. Indoor spaces are freezing to the point I wear fall/winter clothing if I know I’ll be in a mall or airport.

Lack of AC leads countries to be more efficient.. how?

Seems like a big leap

I think they're saying the lack of need for AC

Got it but what does that have to do with efficiency or what specifically is more efficient ?

Not OP, but come on, would you rather work in sweltering heat and humidity with sweat coming off your body, or a cool environment? Doesn't matter if indoors or outdoors, and if it's physical or mental work.

I remember seeing an article from many years ago that said at year X (was it 2050, 2100?), the number of heat days in Singapore where factories would have to stop work might reach 365..

there is a reason why the idea of a siesta during midday is an old tradition in spanish culture

Nothing to come on about, OP said lack of AC makes you more efficient. I still don't understand how.

Temperature affects performance on cognitive tasks. A USC study showed the optimal temperature for men was under 70 degrees, though women prefer a higher temperature. https://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-office-temperature-wome...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com