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Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

Where in Barcelona would you increase density?

https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/barcelona-pop...

from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40752920 ("Barcelona has a 16,000 people per square km density - that’s already one of the highest in Europe.")

Capital moves faster than meat space. To defend the human (affordable housing), you have to regulate. The whole "just build more, I want my AirBnB" argument boggles the mind considering the physical system constraints in play. Easier to just ban AirBnB.

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> Where in Barcelona would you increase density?

It would make sense to increase density around existing rail infrastructure. Barcelona has 7700 km2 of space, that's a lot. They have only 750 persons per km2 on average. Especially the outskirts of the province have really bad density. For example, Sant Joan de Vilatorrada has only 660 inhabitants per km^2 and it is only 3 km from the railway station, 80 min from the Sants station. That density is worse than Phoenix, Arizona, which has 1198/km2. So there is lots of available space.

Note that these numbers are of the Province of Barcelona. I don't know why you'd restrain yourself to the city proper. Here is a dense map of rail: https://www.urbanrail.net/eu/es/bcn/bcn-region-map.htm

> Note that these numbers are of the Province of Barcelona. I don't know why you'd restrain yourself to the city proper.

The article, submission and discussions are about Barcelona city, not some far off town like Sant Joan de Vilatorrada (population: ~10k). No one who lives there would say they live in Barcelona, at most they'd say Manresa as that's the closest city.

But yes, if you're willing to live in the Catalan country-side, then of course Barcelona doesn't suffer from the density for you, but it's not a solution for us who live in Barcelona city.

Barcelona city proper is in a kind of geographical bowl. Look at it on a terrain map, you can see why the city is dense. It's one of the reasons I really like Barcelona, the forced density of the geography increases the amount and quality of services (especially food!) available.

Sant Joan de Vilatorrada is nowhere near Barcelona city, it's 15 hours walk away.

We nowadays have trains that can go uphill.

That being said, in the US you can and should absolutely should build more, and basically get rid of most zoning regulations. You'd have a hard time finding anything as touristic and dense as Barcelona in the US.

I argue AirBnB should be banned anywhere building cannot be done at a rate which ensures affordable housing can exist for locals. Whether that is due to construction labor shortages, density, zoning, whatever, it does not matter. AirBnB can exist where there is surplus housing capacity, but should be banned anywhere else.

Locals get votes, tourists and AirBnB do not. The harm of not being able to afford housing is far worse than harm incurred by not being able to book a vacation rental you prefer.

Following your logic, why not ban hotels?

Hotels go through an approval process to be built, and are regulated (where as AirBnB exists to skirt lodging regulation). Hotels are not competing against residential housing, but AirBnB is.

Of course hotels are competing against residential housing. They take up land that could be used for residential housing instead.

Outside of downtown areas in the biggest cities in the US, it is very unlikely that a hotel is built in an area that people would want to build residential housing.

Normally hotels are built near either business or tourist areas. Very few people want their residences in the suburban office park areas. Tourist areas tend to be older areas that have strong restrictions on new development--hotels there have to go through long permitting processes.

Well look at a map of Barcelona. Hotels are in the middle of residential areas throughout the city. Not sure what the permitting process has to do with any of this. Hotels take up land. Land that could be used for residential housing. Permitting can be changed by law (same as banning AirBnbs).

https://www.google.com/maps/search/barcelona+hotels/@41.3806...

> Very few people want their residences in the suburban office park areas.

Not sure what you’re implying here but in the US homes in the suburbs back up to office parks all the time.

>Very few people want their residences in the suburban office park areas.

Of course they do.

I was just observing yesterday a big condo development right across from a recently-vacated office complex in an ex-urban area where I used to work.

> get rid of most zoning regulations

"most" is doing a lot of work here. don't forget you probably don't want to live next to an airport, railroad, chemical plant

No one is suggesting getting rid of industrial zoning. "getting rid of zoning" for the vast majority of people saying it means removing density restrictions and mixed use (business + residential) restrictions.

Well, living near and airport or railroad is priced in, and not really a problem. Chemical plants... A bit of a stretch, isn't it?

I lived a few miles away from the Texas City plant, growing up. A good, stiff, wind, and a penchant for rhinoviruses can solve a lot of chemical-plant-related issues.

what does this even mean?

> I want my BnB...

Now, that's the way you do it.

You play the market with a BnB.

That ain't workin': that's the way you do it.

Money for nothin' and your rent for free.

> "Barcelona has a 16,000 people per square km density - that’s already one of the highest in Europe."

In Yonghe (a suburb of Taipei), the population density is over 38,000/sqkm.

They don't ban AirBnB apartments and renting a normal lease there, I was paying about $300 USD/month for rent until 2022, when I moved to LA.

Except there don’t appear to be anywhere near enough airbnbs to put a dent in the rent increase. I’m not saying it won’t do anything; I’m just saying it won’t do much. If you want to lower rents, you’re going to need to find a place to build, and if you can’t find any place, then prices will continue to go up and who will you find to scape goat then?

It doesn’t have to do much, it just has to show some net benefit considering the cost to ban is low. Locals receive the consumer excess through reduced housing costs that would’ve otherwise been real estate investor and AirBnB short term rental profits.

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