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Comment by bsuvc | Hacker News Reader

> nice

I'm reminded of a book I read once called "No More Mr Nice Guy" where it explains that "nice guys" are actually kind of jerks because they behave certain ways to try to manipulate people and they expect reciprocation.

They live by a sort of unspoken code that they believe exists but which other people may or may not be aware of.

When a "nice guy" doesn't get his way, he can become bitter and resentful.

(I am using the term "guy" to fit the name, but it could be a woman too)

I'm not sure if you intended to describe your manager as "nice" in this way, but niceness has become a huge red flag to me ever since reading that book. I much prefer someone who is good (in competence and/or in behavior) than someone who is nice.

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> I'm reminded of a book I read once called "No More Mr Nice Guy" where it explains that "nice guys" are actually kind of jerks because they behave certain ways to try to manipulate people and they expect reciprocation.

That's just red pill BS right there. Somebody is nice, I'm jealous, so he must be incompetent+manipulative, how else can I justify to myself that I want to see him as bad and myself as good? So let's just equate nice with bad, then jerk must be good, so I can just be a jerk and feel good about it!

No, just don't. Incompetent or not, nice is always better than jerk/toxic/.. No matter what red pill folks tell you.

Typical nice guy response.

I never said any of those things, that it was better to be a jerk or toxic, but you assume that I did.

The irony of this response is that I didn't actually claim that you said any of those things. I commented on the book's content and the summary you gave.

Thia reaction of yours is telling though. As well as how you finished your original message:

> niceness has become a huge red flag to me ever since reading that book. I much prefer someone who is good (in competence and/or in behavior) than someone who is nice.

"Niceness" as a red flag? How does that not confirm what I wrote and put you in the camp of those agreeing with the book's message?

> Say nice guys suck

> Somebody disagrees!

> "Typical nice guy response".

Don't do this. This pattern is easy to spot and you instantly lose all credibility.

> Don't do this. This pattern is easy to spot and you instantly lose all credibility.

The difference is, I don't go around telling you what to do. Be a nice guy if you want.

I simply stated my way of thinking, but it angers the "nice guys" and I get attacked for it.

Oh, and you're not the gatekeeper of credibility, nor do I care how "credible" my opinion is to you (what does that even mean?). Credibility of opinions is just more "nice guy speak".

> just more "nice guy speak".

Not credible and tedious to boot. I know you just learned of this "nice guy" conceit, and you're all excited about it, but I hope you grow out of it soon. Just because you have a new hammer doesn't mean everything is a nail.

While the book is more about relationships, it does make applicable points. A "nice" manager that refuses to get down to brass tacks is eventually going to be a problem for everyone when the schedule slips: your complaining about what the actual problem is will be viewed as disloyalty and you'll be the one thrown under the bus.

The opposite view can be taken here though, also discussed in the book. If you are not the manager, you should avoid trying to fill that role. The manager and director certainly don't want you to "help fix their problems".

Ah yes, someone else who has read it.

You're right, it is more in the context of romantic relationships, but I have since noticed nice guys can be a problem everywhere.

I certainly had some "nice guy" tendencies in the past, and maybe still do sometimes, bit I try to be aware and strive to be more direct in my words and behavior.

It's been a few years since I read it... I may read it again actually.

There’s a strange hostility in your comment that doesn’t seem to make sense.

Nice guys can become resentful when their kindness isn’t reciprocated in environments where reciprocity is a reasonable expectation, but that I don’t see how that makes them jerks nor does it make being nice a red flag.

Just know that if someone is nice to you that they are likely to expect to be treated how they treat you and either meet that expectation or turn down their assistance in the first instance.

i dont think grandparent is talking about actual niceness. just sort of a quid-pro-quo where we do and say awful things, and expect that we'll all just pretend that everything is pleasant.

>There’s a strange hostility in your comment that doesn’t seem to make sense.

It doesn't. Sure, there's such things as being "phony nice". But unsociable people tend to over-analyze others and do a ton of projection. The idea that "nice guys" are sociopaths trying to game you is, well, way too cynical for me and my life experience. Some people are just nice.

I first heard the term Nice Guy from the dating world to describe guys who expect women to have sex with them, date them, etc. if they treat the women nicely. Like others have said, quid pro quo obligation. I haven't noticed this in the workplace, but maybe I wasn't paying attention.

> someone who is good (in competence and/or in behavior) than someone who is nice

What if you're both? This makes me feel self-conscious about being "nice" and toning it down.

Perhaps you are kind, which is a great way to be. Niceness is artificial, while kindness is a genuine, caring trait. There was a thread on the distinction yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40696801

"Nice" is a very subjective concept and can be used to describe people in both complimentary and derogatory ways. In my experience niceness and competence are in no way correlated – I have known nice people who were good at their jobs and assholes who were good at their jobs, as well as some of both who were terrible at their jobs. It is perfectly possible to be both competent and nice.

Given the choice between two persons of equal competence, where one is nice and one is not, I would be surprised if anybody chose the less nice one, all other things being equal.

I suggest continuing to be genuine, rather than focusing on "niceness", and not allowing a single comment on the internet to make you feel self-conscious about your character.

You should probably just ignore the above comment. It's referencing a fairly niche use of the term "nice" that's only dubiously relevant here.

> They live by a sort of unspoken code that they believe exists but which other people may or may not be aware of.

I try to be a nice guy but also believe (hope) I'm competent!

On the above that's something I've recognized though, I do feel like I bring some sort of unwritten moral code to my work (as do we all I'm sure) but realizing that nobody else is actually aware of it or follows it is quite important.

I think this goes some way to being able to be "nice" without getting resentful or bitter when things don't go your way.

From the kind-hearted colleague who's freindly at the water cooler but actually very difficult to work with - through to the people who are just rude, dismissive or belligerent - acknowledging that they operate by a different set of principals to you and accepting that somewhat release's you from their effects.

How does that make sense? Should the incompetent boss rather be 'neutral' (DnD sense) or even mean?

Anyhow. OP, it is not your firm and not your problem. Try to run a community playground or something instead of wasting energy on some random company you should not care about.

How do you know whether someone is just genuinely nice, or nice-but-jerk as you explained it?

Not OP, but IMO you look at their actions compared to their words over time.

First time I hear about that book. Interesting. I've reflected already about such "Mr Nice guys". This guy in particular, who I have in mind now, I could never determine whether he was being manipulative or was simply extremely incompetent. Either way, I regarded him as very dangerous: his actions (or lack thereof) constantly disrupted something and the slightest attempt to call him out resulted in multiple people jumping to his defense.

"Nice" is ambiguous, orthogonal to both dimensions of kindness and assertiveness.

It is possible to be nice, considerate, and assertive with discretion and truthfulness.

Overvaluing "nice" above all else can lead to failure, an appearance of dishonesty, and a lack of respect.

IIRC no more nice guy is also a solid classic rock tune by Alice cooper

Obligatory comment from a day ago :-)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40697330

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