Ask HN: Freelancers, how do you get work? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Freelancers, how do you get work?

129 pointsasim78 comments

I'm curious to know how freelancers get work. I've seen things like upwork but the quality seems quite poor. Where are people finding Dev jobs that are more short-term?

View on HN

1. (Easy - Lesser Pay) Attach to a Service Company. While I was at Razorfish, I worked with many Freelancers. You have to be one of them. I see them in regular contact and working via these companies in rotation.

2. (Hard - Better Pay) Personal Networked Connections, if you have one from prior jobs, etc. Otherwise, start building this up - a long-tail game that pays off as time passes.

3. (Harder - Awesome Pay) A long-term play is to start building up a following in the niche you are good at. Try to be very good in the sector you want to work. I once started a company and supported it for many years just by the work that came from my blog and public presence. I was focusing only on writing ActionScript topped with the ability to design. If Macromedia (Adobe) had to pick and introduce big clients to a bunch of people doing that, I was one of the ones in the line. I had the opportunity to work with the likes of STARZ, Disney, Pearson, etc. because I was there helping people on forums asking any questions about the topic.

I also had that problem (and still have), but I found my best gig on the UpWork.

UpWork is a race to the bottom, but only if you are unknown and have no reviews. Once you get a reputation, it gets better. It takes a lot of time, and for me, it's still the process. In the beginning, I focused only on getting good reviews without paying attention to the earnings.

I am based in Germany, and as you can guess, the money I earned couldn't even cover the electricity bills. But I got a few good reviews, and suddenly, one great client found me with a lot of work. Not only did he provide me with a lot of work, but he also referred me to other people, and I got more clients.

So, as someone said in the comments "Sometimes its just a matter of being in the right place at the right time or dumb luck."

I hire regularly on upwork. There are a TON of developers lying about who they are or where they are in the world (I swear, despite the Russian embargo there are a lot of devs from Russia who have found loopholes via Turkey etc). The biggest problem I have is people trying to get a gig then asking to come off upwork. Don’t do this. You’ll get banned. Happened twice this weekend

But do preserve. We would hire at twice the rate when we can for a better more reliable set of reviews.

I don’t think it’s “loopholes via Turkey” but literally Russian people living in Turkey. They’ve moved there in droves since the draft began.

How do they actually catch people and enforce it?I’ve always wondered.

Unless they are asking to go off Upwork right in the Upwork chat tool (which is horrible)

You know why Microsoft Recall scared the shit out of me? It's because of Upwork and their spyware requirement as a condition of getting work. Upwork's spyware closely resembles Recall, what with the periodic screenshots. It also watches your computer's face camera.

Just keep in mind that after all the hard work you’ve done over the years, having good reviews etc. if Upwork (or whatever else platform you’re on) terminates your account—and you have no other income/client acquisition stream—you‘re screwed.

Happened to me years ago. After struggling to get clients on Upwork I finally got gigs and good reviews. Put in a lot of hard work and earned some sort of „trusted freelancer“ badge (don’t know what it was called) that helped me to promote my profile.

I was very happy… only to find out a few days later that Upwork suddenly terminated my account for a (supposed) breach of their rules. They didn’t want to tell me the actual reason but said that I have mentioned „PayPal“ in a message to my clients (and accusing me of wanting to move my clients away from Upwork).

Never did I wanted to do that. I don’t know if I ever mentioned PayPal—and if so then only to talk about payment processor integrations on clients websites.

I messaged back and forth for days with them. In the end it wasn’t worth my energy.

Just be careful and get control of your income streams and diversify as much as possible.

For sure. I think gig apps are good for meeting clients but it’s good business to have them contact you/your business directly in the future

Right place is definitely a factor.

I'm a western expat in an asian developing nation, and so get lumped in with 'compatriots' as far as salary requirements go, but it's actually more expensive to live here than in many western nations once you factor in education, medical, basic western living standards, etc. And of course timezone is a factor, but I'm willing to work nightshift at this point.

Not getting any love from the freelance sites, in fact most proposals are not even read.

Upwork is a disgusting place along with Fiverr, etc. The company itself, the contractors, as well as the freelancers. Everybody is lying, cheating, and scamming.

I know some people make some money there and it might be lucrative if you are located in a developing country. But I wouldn't touch Upwork if you have a tiny bit of self-respect. It is just a race to the bottom there...

All it takes is for one stupid client to post a fake bad review just because of some petty argument. Hopefully, you won’t ever experience that ever but just keep that in mind and thoroughly document everything you do with a client.

Do they require screen monitoring? That seems brutal to me.

Pointless too, I look at memes on my phone anyway.

Any tips for building up an Upwork profile? I've bid on some jobs for what feel like crazy low rates and still not getting any interest.

How hard is it to game the system on Upwork and either buy reviews or have a group of friends hire one another.

Never thought of it before. And before anyone sticks up their nose at me, it’s basically what ever VC does with their portfolio companies.

This is a standard question here and the standard answer is "through my personal network", as if that would be helpful to a person who's asking where to find work.

Cold email... 2/10

Cold phone calls... 4/10

Replying to job ads and offering to freelance instead... 5/10

IMO, it is helpful to know the truth for a person asking how others find work/make a decent living freelancing.

> Replying to job ads and offering to freelance instead

Sounds obvious, but I had never thought of doing this. How did it work out? How keen were the companies on such an arrangement? Perhaps it could also be a way to work for some cool small US companies that are otherwise hiring in the US only.

" How keen were the companies on such an arrangement"

Depends on location. In germany for example there is the concept of "Scheinselbstständigkeit" meaning when you have only 1 client, you do not count as a freelancer and then it gets expensive for the company. Companies do not like that threat and they rather pay a bit more and are safe than having extra risk.

In general, if the company is desperate for workers, they are more willing to go out of their way, otherwise most do not like complications. And freelancer instead of normal workers is a complication unless they are used to it.

Nobody is desperate for workers these days, that's the problem. They're trying to shed their headcount as much as possible and hope they can delegate significant amounts of work to AI.

This is how I got my first consulting gig. Never heard a response from 99% of the messages, but I did find one guy who was open to an out-of-the-box arrangement and it ended up working out great for both of us.

You will definitely have better odds with startups or other small/scrappy companies. Emphasize the low commitment and flexibility to get your foot in the door, and if you play your cards right you can turn it into a longer engagement.

I’m a big proponent of fractional work - which I define as retained half-time or quarter-time work. It’s more stable than hourly freelance, but gives far more autonomy than employment. Some people work one part-time role, while others work multiple fractional roles to earn more money.

Even if you’re looking for short-term work, I recommend following the Fractional scene because it’s getting more traction among companies right now - so it’s getting more jobs. I have hired four fractional so far this year.

I run a free community for fractional workers, which has a bunch of tips and resources: https://frctnl.xyz

One big takeaway there is to market yourself and post on the monthly HN freelancer thread.

Fractional work is my goal. I've been able to get some 10/15/20 hour week fractional gigs at higher than my hourly rate as a corporate employee. Finding that work is difficult though.

On iPhone “Safari can’t open the page because too many redirects occurred”. No content blockers.

Ah, redirect to www was broken. Just fixed it. Thanks for the heads up.

Word of mouth, referral.

Put another way, freelancing means your job is part your vocation and part sales and marketing. You generally need to be proficient at both in order to be successful.

For me, personally, while I was an employee I went to monthly tech meetups—ideally cross-functional, not just programming language user groups—and travel to conferences on my own dime.

Things have changed in the last 20 years, but the principles of what worked for me still apply. I met people from around the world at conferences like sxsw interactive and kept in touch on a nascent pre-celebrity twitter. When I decided to go freelance, I had over 100 acquaintances to reach out to, whether they might want to work with me or to keep me in mind if they eventually had someone to refer. Obviously, the communities and platforms would be different today.

It helps to specialize, so when someone encounters a need for $skill or $domain they think of you. For me, that was data visualization. I also built a portfolio with a lot of automotive work, which begat more work in that industry.

Personal contacts. With this, I mostly mean LinkedIn. Found my last two gigs there. Once because an old colleague was reaching out and the other time when I made a post, that I am up for work. There are also tons of recruiters there looking for freelancers, at least for platform engineering I am getting weekly at least 1 or 2 offers.

Those are not offers but asking your permission that they can pitch you on a job ad they think somewhat fits. It's like automated job ad submission except you start with a disadvantage as they get up to 10% of your yearly salary.

I would encourage you to look at recruiters more as partners or as an unpaid sales team. They are out there speculatively busting their ass and building relationships with buyers.

I run my own business and would pay 10% commission in exchange for qualified opportunities all day long.

Except most recruiters are not working in your interest. Only their own. They'll push down your pay to increase their margin. This is particularly true in contracting.

Not all work on transparent commissions, at least here in the UK that's rare.

They are, by and large, talentless liars and cheats with a false narrative and harmful practice.

Seeing them as anything other than hostile to your interests is a quick way to get ripped off by these hacks.

Source: I consult for them on technical screening processes.

as long as my pay is according to my needs and expectations, i don't care how much of a cut the recruiter makes. the company i work for is getting ripped off just as much as i am. otherwise if the pay is not enough, don't take the job.

the worst that can happen is that the recruiter misrepresents your skills and experience. that can easily be solved by sharing your CV directly with the hiring company. if the recruiter doesn't allow you to do that, then it's a red flag.

Believe me that's not the worst that can happen.

Ive seen people work for a year at a lowish rate, then be denied a rate increase.

Only to find out later the increase was authorised but the recruiter took it and lied to the worker about it be accepted.

This, sadly, isn't at all uncommon. I see it constantly.

They'll risk your security, reputation and income for quick results to hit their quotas for bonuses.

Only to find out later the increase was authorised but the recruiter took it and lied to the worker about it be accepted.

If an increase was requested by the worker and authorised by the client and then the recruiter just plain lied about it and took the money - how is that not plain old fraud?

Well, they were never contracted to be honest. The only way any party would know about the deception would be to conspire... Something explicitly forbidden by quite a few contracts where recruiters are middle men.

Note, they did conspire... Eventually. Next rate increase, I was in the room when client and contractor alternately took calls from the recruiter on speaker phone.

Everyone was shocked at the outcome.

The client ended up buying the contractor out of the recruiters exclusivity.

ok, but why are they still involved at that point? shouldn't a recruiter get out of the picture once the connection is made? if they are still involved after that then they are an employment agency. you get good and bad ones there too. but my contract should make it clear which one it is.

Yes but when contracting, that's how it is structured much of the time.

yes, that makes sense. however i call that staffing, not recruiting. recruiting should always lead to a direct hire by the client company.

i guess the important part for any job seeker is to know the distinction and be aware of the benefits and downsides of each. and when talking to a recruiter to make clear which one this is.

staffing agencies have their place and can be an advantage in some situations. depending on what you are looking for. in the US in particular they may be able to provide continuous insurance (just a guess, i don't actually know). another advantage may be permanent employment with the agency. (again, i don't know how this is in the US, but due to stronger labor protection it is more likely in germany.)

when you are employed with a staffing agency, it is clear that they are responsible for your salary, and whatever they may be able to negotiate with the client is only incidentally related. you have to consider that they take a risk. if the client defaults or they don't have work for you they may still pay you (again at least in germany they have to).

when i hire that is the way i'd like to operate, but mainly because i want to build my own team and only offer staffing services only as an alternative to doing projects as an agency. i like to give them a fixed monthly salary, and when i have no client work for them i have internal projects they can work on. (which is the point, to earn enough money so that we can spend part of the time on our own products). but that requires that i take a large cut on what i get from the employees work. and any raise they get is based on their overall performance and not on what i can negotiate with a particular client.

the above example seems to be the result of a misunderstanding of what the role of the recruiter here is. (and it may well be the recruiters fault for misrepresenting that)

so again, when talking to a recruiter, make that relationship clear up front and get it in writing if need be, or bail out if the contract is not with who you expect it to be.

There isn't so much of a distinction in the UK. Even where it is FTE, the recruiter can still contract with the hiring party to make the same effective leverage as in what you call staffing.

It's less common, but they'll insert themselves as a middleman whereever they can.

At my last job, the recruiter managing the contract and FTE coders flew in on a private helicopter and gifted the office manager a Rolex. Wish I was joking.

wow, in germany that kind of bribery is illegal if it is against the interests of the company.

but i do not understand how the recruiter can skim off the raise if the employee is contracted directly with the client. i mean, sure they can make a contract to get a cut, say 10% of the employees salary, so when the employee gets a raise, the recruiter gets more too. but negotiating a raise and then keeping that secret from the employee should only be possible if the employee is only contracted with the recruiter and not with the client directly.

What an unexpected ending.

I'm not above taking their money

I am speaking out of longtime experience and can confirm what the other replier here said. Rent-seeking without end, catering to companies that are too busy/lazy/incapable of attracting quality talent themselves. They just look for some keywords and have very superficial knowledge of the industry.

(disclaimer, even if obvious: sure, there are some honest good independent recruiters there, I met them as well)

"If you're not paying you're not the customer, you're the product" is as true of crooters as it is of Google and Meta.

Yeah, but in this case that is deliberate. You are absolutely the product. Recruiters are selling you to the buyer. That is exactly the point.

In my experience the biggest problem with recruiters in contracting was always the gatekeeping and control. Normally once they provided an introduction the client could only engage you via the recruiter - even if the role was also available through other recruiters or advertised directly by the client and you could have found it elsewhere as well.

That meant you could find a great client and have a deal lined up with all the key terms agreed and everyone ready to go and then at the last minute the recruitment agency could send you a terrible contract and refuse to negotiate. Then you'd not only have wasted your time going through possibly quite a long process with the recruiter but you'd also be blocked from working with a client who also wanted to work with you for a long time, which makes no business or economic sense at all.

This had been less of a problem a few years earlier when more contracts were direct with clients but the whole software contracting industry was becoming increasingly toxic here in the UK thanks to IR35 and the like. As a result many contracts - particularly with the larger clients who tend to be slightly more reliable about actually starting the work and having the budget for it - have only been available through the client's preferred suppler/recruiter list for some time.

I think if the whole contract recruitment industry got regulated almost out of existence it would probably be a huge boon to the sector. Or just declare that if intermediaries offer contracts in bad faith and won't negotiate - maybe with a list of specific hostile practices that are automatically considered bad faith - then any non-compete terms with either the worker or the client become unenforceable. In fact it might be better just to make the intermediaries generally liable if they act in bad faith because then the ones who waste your time with roles that are never really there and do shady things just to harvest CVs for their database could also be sued for the wasted time at the contractor's normal rate.

In the German market it’s recruiting and placement agencies. Shameless self plug I collected a list of URLs https://github.com/eigenfunk/freelance-recruiting-de

Through my network.

Do a good job for people in the past and they will hire you again when they can.

But there isn’t much good work out there right now. Tech is going through a rough patch for sure.

Can confirm, the freelance market went from very easy to extremely hard in the last two years. Much fewer positions and of course then a lot of candidates for any opening. I think a big part has been the interest rates and companies subsequently being tight with budgets. Many have changed back to permanent positions.

If you’re somewhere with a tech scene then go to meet-ups. It’s so much easier to meet people and build a network in person. Don’t be the pushy guy looking for work, they will instantly turn people off and they’ll remember that about you. Just be friendly and get to know people and talk about technical stuff. You want to be the knowledgeable helpful person who is easy to get along with so that when someone is looking for help you’re a natural person to recommend.

I don’t know how it is these days but I used to get a huge amount of work through the monthly “seeking freelancers” threads. I’d just post my ad and get a bunch of enquires every month. You can probably find some of those ads if you look back through my post history.

Having a website can help especially if you do something that’s currently hot. I got loads of work by being on the first or second page of google (not even top of the page!) for “[technology] programmer in [town]”. React Native was definitely one of those technologies for a little bit around here, but that changes so it’ll be a little bit luck and a little bit judgement in making sure you describe your self the right way.

Even sites like upwork (rentacoder was the site that was current last time I did this) have worked for me in the past. My strategy then was to be amongst the most expensive for any project and wait for the people frustrated with low quality cheap workers wanting to try the other end.

Do keep in mind that a large part of the “job” of being a freelancer is networking and marketing yourself. It requires constant attention even when you do start to get work (a common pitfall is to get some work and stop looking, then it ends and your back to square one). If you’re not willing to make that as much a part of skill set as the stuff you’re hoping to get paid to do then I wouldn’t recommend freelancing. But if you are happy with that it can be fun and varied and not a bad way to work!

I design hardware and build teams that design hardware, so this may be a bit different than more SW focused folks but I've found LinkedIn Sales Navigator to be a very powerful sales tool. You can basically target potential clients using very powerful search filters, and then from there it's pretty standard marketing as in any business.

I'm not hardware designer and I'd like to learn more about getting into freelancing and consulting, do you have any pointers?

For sure, feel free to reach out, contact info is in my bio.

All the comments in this thread so far are great, and you should definitely try a combination of all of them.

It's been a while since I've needed to do this, but regarding the 'personal network' - back when I started freelancing I'd go to meetups that weren't directly related to my set of skills, but my skillset could be somewhat needed. If you're a dev and you go to developer meetups, there's a strong chance a lot of the room is doing what you're doing and looking for what you're looking for. Instead, attend meetups where people are likely to need your skillset but won't have it - agency owners, startups, SEO events, whatever.

It's kind of obvious in hindsight, but you have to fish where the fish are. If you're a guy looking to pick up girls, a sports bar filled with guys is probably a terrible choice of a night out. If you're a girl looking to pick up guys, maybe it's a great choice.

Be brave about conversation (you have nothing to lose!), introduce yourself to people, then just listen and ask questions. People love to talk about themselves, listen to their work and problems (of course talk about you, be natural, just talk less than they do!). Thank them for being really interesting to talk to, get their contact details. If you think there's work there, email them the next day: "It was really lovely meeting to you and chatting. I've been thinking about your problem with X, I'd probably approach it like Y. If you want to grab a drink and chat it through, we absolutely should."

There's little worse/more off-putting than meeting someone at an event and they immediately trying to sell themselves. Establish a rapport and follow up after. Even if you have nothing to offer you can contact them and say it was lovely to meet them. Some of the best people in your network will be the ones you meet like this, stay in touch with, then remember you when the timing is right (and vice versa).

Just my 2c! Good luck!

I published open source plugins for a popular tool and blogged about niche topics a decade ago. Not sure how practical that can still be today. Now I just wait for recruiters to approach me or go through recruiting agencies job ads.

Via personal contacts. If you had a reputation of getting shit done at past gigs, your former coworkers should be lining up to contract you to fill in urgent business needs, or to get their new startup off the ground.

Upwork also plays favourites to agencies - there appears to be some sort of non-transparent relationship there that they don't want the general public-marketplace knowing about, but if you use Upwork long enough you'll hit its various boundaries and faults; I'm guessing they don't disclose this in their public documentation to shareholders - as would match the other unethical-shady pattern of behavour I've experienced on that platform.

LinkedIn job search. I filter by contracts, part time, remote …etc and apply even if it’s not a perfect fit. In addition, specific tech job boards. I got a couple contract/freelance gigs this way that since 2018. The same clients keep giving me jobs in and off. I noticed it’s a bit harder now than it used to be but that’s probably across the tech market.

could you elaborate on that? i have never used linkedin job search. also which tech job boards? any recommendations?

Go to linkedin and search for jobs you like. There is an advanced search options where you can filter by remote, contract, part time or full time. What I meant by specific tech board is applying directly on a websites/boards/forums associated with a certain tech. For example elixir jobs .com if you are want something in that space.

You learn to market your services. If you don't know how to market, there's plenty of resources out there.

The best answer here.

Totally agree. It is also why I would never even consider freelance.

The idea of creating a personal "brand" makes me nearly physically sick I hate the idea so much.

I am very risk averse. I love the predictability of what shows up in my bank account.

"Freelance" for me would just be a euphemism for being unemployed. The situation would just make me depressed and I would end up just getting a new job.

It seems to me the type of person who would thrive at freelancing doesn't need to read this thread or ask these questions to start with.

i have to market myself just as much when applying for jobs. really. i don't see the difference.

actually, there is a difference. if i have services, i can market those as products. if i look for jobs then i have to market myself. so in fact, as a job hunter the personal brand is even more important than when selling services.

i get the risk aversion, that's a different issue.

I've started at 2018, mainly used a similar site to upwork but local to my country so less competition and most of the time when you find a client from there, they refer you or use you again

Of course adding there to your profile skills, portfolio etc, sending your CV and website can really help

Once you have a website like this or a few, always keep hunting for work. You can fail to get one for 2 weeks but then find one that will last you few months of work

Normally as a "freelancer" you get make much more money with the same time of work, if you work fast try to always get a fixed price project and finish it ASAP. If not you can use a client or a few hourly and over the time to look for those fixed price

If you new to this, you gonna make a lot of mistakes estimating costs on those fixed price projects, we all do. We learn over time :)

80% of clients came from recommendations from two people. One was a VC, the other was a designer/PR/marketer who'd take projects that needed more people.

It's hard to find these kinds of people in the first place, but do things well and the connections will come.

The basic problem is not seeking freelance work....seek instead of offer a service...

What is the difference?

1. If seeking freelance work you get put at the bottom of the pay stack! 2. If you research the target buyers and create a buyable sellable service then the pay lever is back in your hands.

Look even Setty states this implied in all the books he has authored.

Now the third point:

3. Product as a service means you have recurring revenue which means less searching for work or in short words. Yes, at first you have a lot of marketing work resulting in 80 hour weeks...but over time that decreases as you get more recurring service contracts...

You mixed two very different things: business and freelance. Some people just want to sell their hours and not do business.

Pardon me for widening the question, are there part time maintenance / weekend gig ? I often think I'd enjoy non architectural short jobs to save more money...

there aren't a lot of options these days for good paying freelance gigs. Sometimes its just a matter of being in the right place at the right time or dumb luck.

I was lurking in an open source project's Discord and one day someone asked if anyone was willing to customize a feature for them. Turned out I also wanted the feature myself. So I replied to them and business was conducted via GitHub Sponsors. They also offered to pay via cryptocurrency. I wrote the code, sent the patch to them via Discord and eventually got a version of it upstreamed.

Hey, soon this will be posible on OpenPledge. I suggest you go on their waitlist (openpledge.io) since they will launch soon.

I'm the founder of https://fractionaljobs.io - we help talent (e.g. engineers) with senior-level fractional gigs. We've placed maybe 5 lead engineer or CTO roles in the last couple of months.

Happy to answer Q's if you have any.

I made a website for the guy repairing the roof and one for the dude reading the heaters once a year and when I complained to the owner of a local self service car wash the Hoover had swallowed my euro we got talking and I made a site for the car wash too. Oh and Upwork sends a mail every six months reminding me that I have an account there.

curious how you host the site? i've been thinking about this too. do you put them on wordpress or squarespace or what? i've been tempted to setup people on a custom, "self-hosted (by me)" django cms + wagtail

I started with Fiverr and UpWork (when it was ODesk) many years back and built a profile of highly satisfied repeat customers. These days, I get most of the work through existing customers or referrals.

Make offline social connections. Many people in your community don't bother with sites like upwork. There is less competition offline.

giving talks and more talks and more talks at MeetUps and similar events.

Or organize your own.

Then underpromise and overfullfill.

Use then these contacts for

a) more talks b) new clients

repeat.

Also set up a newsletter / mailing list. Start collecting emailadresses immediately.

Some other platforms besides Upwork:

contra.com

flexjobs.com

careervault.io

weworkremotely.com

pangain.com

justremote.co

himalayas.app

angel.co

remotive.com

authenticjobs.com

remocate.app

trulyremote.co

jobspresso.co

remoteok.com

dailyremote.com

workingnomads.com

virtualvocations.com

Reply on news.ycombinator.com