Indian startup 3D prints rocket engine in 72 hours
spectrum.ieee.org
spectrum.ieee.org
Anyone who's previously worked with 3D printing knows that this simply does not pass any kind of a sniff test. Both preventing and detecting internal defects is one of the, if not the hardest problem in 3D printing. There are many large companies trying to find ways to reliably solve just this problem alone. Saying that this method doesn't require any checks after production is simply false.
Carbon fiber is a fickle beast and is prone to such failures so that alone worried me, but it was incredible for me to learn that they expected some sort of early warning from cracking.
As I remember he talks about the sound detection thing.
Recent one-year-lookback story by Wired.
The problem is that warning sign comes at around 10ms or less before the actual disaster
https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/Hierarchy_of_Contro...
This is a driver assist program. There is no way such a program, that is subordinate to the driver and depends on the driver being in control, can protect the driver from not doing their part, and driving.
They can put whatever disclaimers in the manual but their branding is giving a different message. It's a message Tesla wants the customer to hear: "sit back and relax, the car drives for you."
The branding does not communicate that the driver needs to be just as aware and engaged as they would be if they were driving on their own, and be ready to take control of the vehicle at any moment.
Compare this to GM's "Super Cruise" branding. The message I get from that is "cruise control, but better." Cruise control is a long established feature, drivers have plenty of experience with it, and they know that it is definitely not going to drive the car itself. They know they're still going to have to pay attention because the car is going to do some of the driving tasks but not all of them. The car is making no implicit or explicit claim that it will drive for you.
"Full Self Driving" and related features like "Summon" make implicit claims in how they're named and presented. The driver absolutely has responsibility but Tesla is trying to play both sides of the coin with their branding vs their actual liability.
When a product's naming and branding is well aligned with its actual utility, it builds trust with the customer. The customer doesn't feel like the seller is trying to pull a fast one on them.
Tesla chose their branding direction and Elon chooses to make his "optimistic" predictions that have made it sound like true self driving is right around the corner for years. That people take this impression away is no fault of anyone but those that put the impression out there in the first place.
The naming, whatever you may think of it, is massively overrided by the strongly worded warnings and instructions that are abundantly and repeatedly displayed to the driver, that effectively and unambiguously convey to the driver that they must be attentive while using the driver assist features.
Second, who do you think was ultimately the one at fault for the excessive radiation doses caused by the Therac-25 machines: the machine technician operating the machine or the machine manufacturer? If it isn't the technician then I don't understand your argument because you can just find/replace every instance of driver in your post with technician.
Creating Agents is a lot harder.
This Time It’s Not Different At All
Tool - Pretty much everything humanity has made to date. It does a preprogrammed thing or provides mechanical advantage. But it does not act on novel decisions it is making.
The terms come from an AI safety expert that Lex Friedman interviewed recently. [1]
Tesla FSD is almost an agent, though it asks a human to be ready to take over at any time.
Secondly, it is already established and disclosed that the driver assist cannot self-drive. This would be comparable to a Therac-25 machine being sold as being incapable of limiting radiation output, and then not limiting radiation output.
There is absolutely no other company in the world where a predictable and disclosed shortcoming of the driver assist combined with the failure of the driver to fulfill their responsibility to be in control, would be blamed on the driver assist program.
Both Musk and Tesla are far from perfect, but the lengths that people go to to attack them is obviously agenda-driven and a result of emotions.
Your analogy makes no sense given that the risk is always on the driver whether there are driver assistance features or not.
Even in accident cases, remember that the Teslas involved are not new - they have had dozens or hundreds of successful drives before the accident.
("Self-Driving" alone could be reasonable in certain contexts, but insisting on "Full Self-Driving" is a flat-out lie in plain language. Saying " Alan is fully capable of driving the car." means that he requires zero monitoring and/or intervention; same for the "Fully..." phrase.)
It's "we'll take the profits from selling it as something that it is not.".
While simultaneously they take every step to ensure that when things go wrong when it inevitably turns out to NOT be what they claimed, the entire burden and responsibility is not on them, but on you.
Like I said in the other comment:
There is absolutely no other company in the world where a predictable and disclosed shortcoming of the driver assist combined with the failure of the driver to fulfill their responsibility to be in control, would be blamed on the driver assist program.
Both Musk and Tesla are far from perfect, but the lengths that people go to to attack them is obviously agenda-driven and a result of emotions
No, not even close, dead wrong spurious insults. For many years, I held Musk in very high regard, and you can find I've even posted extensive defenses of him here on HN. My changed views are a direct result of observed behavior.
No, the fact that the driver assist disengages is NOT what I am pointing to as the attempt to shift responsibility.
Tesla is selling and loudly insisting that they can use the term "Full Self-Driving". Tesla advertises and charges(ed?) 5-figure-USD amounts for fully autonomous self-driving capabilities that would allow the cars to be used in competition with Uber/Lift but without drivers. This money was charged for features that were supposed to be available in the previous decade. Yet now, in the middle of the 2020s, there are no such features available.
Moreover, they are so far from delivering such features that your argument is that any accident is fully the fault of driver attention being less than 100%. So, clearly, the features related to "Full Self Driving" or "FSD" do not exist.
Moreover, everything about the actual implementation, including instructions to be always vigilant, UI warnings about no hands on the steering wheel/yoke, alerts to re-engage, auto-disconnect, live data collection so Tesla can prove what mode was engaged, what level of control, etc., etc., etc. all point to the requirement for the DRIVER TO BE FULLY ENGAGED. They also ensure that the situation is such that if the driver fails to be fully engaged, it is the driver's fault/responsibility.
When the driver MUST BE fully engaged
(as you argue and I just documented),
the car is NOT "Fully Self-Driving".
The two conditions are by definition mutually exclusive.
The fact that Tesla is trying to have it both ways is exactly as I said:
They want the profits from the false advertising that it is "Fully Self-Driving", but ensure that when it turns out to be false, all consequences are on the customer.
There's nothing emotional about that fact pattern. I've even said above, that I think it'd be perfectly OK for Tesla to say "Self-Driving" as that does not directly imply that you can fully disengage because the FAD is "Fully" engaged.
I'm not the only one who thinks that language means something, even though Musk does not, and you think that calling out a blatant lie and possible fraud must be emotional.
Sorry for the length, if I'd had more time, I'd have written a shorter post
No one who drives a Tesla thinks that the driver assist features are intended to or capable of autonomous driving. The naming, whatever you may think of it, is massively overrided by the strongly worded warnings and instructions that are abundantly and repeatedly displayed to the driver, that effectively and unambiguously convey to the driver that they must be engaged while using the driver assist features.
If you want to criticize the naming for being inaccurate even if they argue it's intended to be a forwarding looking statement of aspirations, I would accept that criticism as arguably justified.
But that the driver is fully aware of their responsibilities is beyond any doubt.
Blaming Tesla for its autopilot disengaging 0.1s before impact in a number of accidents is therefore unjustified.
NO they did not. If I was like you, I'd over-generalize and say that "you are just like every other right-wing nutter who only believes a limited view of the world and must slam any other view, regardless of how disconneced from the facts..."
But I won't. I'll explain that my view changed when Musk went from delivering as much or more than he claimed, as was the case with early SpaceX and Tesla. to massively over-promising and under-delivering, e.g., now nearly a decade late on his FSD, so late on Starship that his first cricumlunar customer already bailed, making inflated promises about AI, lying about OpenAI, delivering Cybertruck a half-decade late and with crappy quality, etc., etc., etc. One particular turning point was when he argued about software engineering in public with one of Twitter's lead engineers, and it was obvious to me (with some background in commercial software) that Musk was nothing but bluster and bullshit; it became clear he is not a master engineer, he's a master manipulator. I have far less respect for the latter.
As you can see, it has absolutely zero to do with whatever 'anti-establishment' carp you are ranting on about. But you seem to enjoy your fact-free life more, so carry on.
All his faults came into laser focus, and a disproportionate share of coverage became negative in its slant.
Nothing in his entrepreneurial strategy changed since 2018. Ordinary people just don't appreciate how ideologically biased mainstream news media is, so are taken in by the change in how they choose to portray him.
Yes he has, we're in agreement.
> The entirely left-wing establishment news media
You opened your mind too far here and your brain may have fallen out.
Have you heard of Fox News and the Murdoch empire? Could you explain how either Murdoch isn't part of the US establishment news media or how it is that he's "left-wing" ?
Where do you think the media and political power concentrates in the US? The Republican party or the Democratic Party?
89% of cities with a population > 100,000 in the US have a Democrat mayor. All of the public sector unions support the Democrats. All of the news guilds, and most of their members, support the Democrats.
Almost all of academia supports the Democrats. Law firms donate five times more to the Democrats than to Republicans. The political class is intimately linked to the legal profession.
Judge Kathaleen McCormick, who rescinded Elon Musk's $55 billion Tesla compensation package, against the will of the company's board and 80% of its shareholders, worked at Young Conaway before her Delaware Chancery Court Judge appointment.
In 2016, Hunter Biden organized a gubernatorial campaign event for Congressman John Carney, featuring then-Vice President Joe Biden as the guest speaker. The event was held at the Law Offices of Young Conaway in Wilmington, Delaware.
The lawyers who won the lawsuit against Musk thanks to McCormick's ruling are now asking for $5.5 billion in Tesla stock, for their legal fees. Giving to Democrat-allied lawyers and taking from technologists.
>Yes he has, we're in agreement.
I'm not surprised you agree with me on the one negative thing I've said about him. Entirely predictable.
Arguing that your 'champion' has ALWAYS been a liar — that argument does not mean what you think it means
>>don't appreciate how ideologically biased mainstream news media is,
"The liberal media" is the biggest lie ever. It may once have been the case, and while some still wear liberal clothes, 90% of the news media, including 'local' media, is owned and run by only SIX corporations. While some operations have unions, they are virtually powerless to even slow down massive newsroom layoffs, and the corporations that aren't flat-out right-wing yellow sheets (e.g., Fox, [0]), are nevertheless all-in on pro-'conservative' politics as both the corporations and their owners & leaders dislike being taxed at higher rates.
>> so are taken in by the change in how they choose to portray him.
Right, so all people are mere sheep being "taken in" by the evil news media, except for you... As you rant on in every more circular ways, that becomes less and less convincing, and in fact look far more like you are the one taken in by RW populist rags who flood the zone with lies and opinion designed to flatter your biases.
The fact is that your hero, who we agree always lied, initially delivered some really great advances, and initially had the reputation of an engineering wizard, has in more recent years failed to deliver on decades-old 'promises', and has shown himself publicly to be less of a master engineer and more of a master manipulator. His focus has obviously changed from engineering to social media nonsense.
I can see that from his own writings. I did not need any news media whatsoever to observe this. Many other people also can view this. Except for you.
Consider taking your own advice, stop reading the media, and start going to the actual source data.
And yes, providing many arguments that saying two opposite and mutually contradictory things in marketing vs actual operations is somehow OK, actually convinces us that no, it is systematic lying and definitely not OK. The marketing is fraudulent and the operations are proof of that.
[0] Fox, which settled for $787 million for repeatedly lying about elections, and literally argues in court that no reasonable person would believe their announcers)
He's not my champion. I generally like him, but disagree with him on some issues. I defend anyone against clearly agenda-driven attacks, whether I support them or not.
>>90% of the news media, including 'local' media, is owned and run by only SIX corporations.
Is that why the media conspired to hide the Hunter Biden laptop story during the elections?
The corporations cannot override their unionized employees, because of labor laws and collective bargaining agreements.
And the corporations themselves are often dependent on the labyrinth of regulatory restrictions inhibiting competition, and government contracts, for their bottom line, so are by no means biased toward political parties that defend free market principles.
>>Right, so all people are mere sheep being "taken in" by the evil news media, except for you...
I think the people who have turned on Musk have been taken in, and I haven't. Naturally I think I'm right. Now what I think doesn't matter. What does is the evidence I provide, like the coincidence of public opinion and news media coverage turning against Musk precisely when he began vocally criticizing positions espoused by the political left, like advocating censorship of views critical of tbe Democratic party, and minority viewpoints on COVID and gender pronoun use, on the largest social media sites.
>>The fact is that your hero, who we agree always lied, initially delivered some really great advances, and initially had the reputation of an engineering wizard, has in more recent years failed to deliver on decades-old 'promises',
Tesla hit sales records precisely before and during the period when the mainstream/establishment turned on him. Tesla became the most successful US automaker in a generation, and for a time, was the most valuable automaker in the world. And all while building only fully electric vehicles.
SpaceX made enormous strides in reusable rockets, with record numbers of launches of Falcon 9, and significant advances on its fully reusable Starship space vehicle, in exactly the same period when you are claiming he was falling short.
Look at this graph of number of space launches per year:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/yearly-number-of-objects-...
The massive increase in US launches was solely due to SpaceX. To put it another way: the US restoring its leadership in the pivotally important space industry was entirely due to Musk's company.
Sp no, your arguments don't stand to reason. His behavior and performance would not explain a significant portion of the population turning against him.
The establishment, which includes all the left wing news guilds which dominate news media, turning against him for his anti-establishment comments, would.
>>I defend anyone against clearly agenda-driven attacks
Well, you have clearly massively misidentified my comment, from the start to the last comment.
I have no conspiracy theory or agenda. I simply observed, over time, from Musk's and Tesla's OWN STATEMENTS that he and Tesla insist that "Full Self Driving" is a legitimate claim (despite failing to prove it in court and settling to avoid a verdict) and that this is in contrast to the requirement that the driver be '100% in control at all times'.
One of those is a plain language lie. It does not require a conspiracy theory or agenda to point this out.
Yet you are more clearly pursuing your own agenda and conspiracy theories.
I've many times defended Musk on here, but no longer do as I have more information.
In contrast, you just posted this conspiracy theory:
>>like the coincidence of public opinion ... Tesla hit sales records precisely before and during the period when the mainstream/establishment turned on him.
This is not evidence, it is a theory that there is a conspiracy against Musk. Your claim is that it is not real people, but some cabal of unionized journalists (btw, only about 17% of journalists are unionized) that conspired to print lies to turn people against Musk.
You overlook entirely the most likely explanation, which is that Musk's own statements, often designed to be outrageous, speak for themselves.
Musk obviously chose his side and insists on being extremely blatant about it. I've never seen a CEO tell everyone to "Go fuck yourselves" on a public stage, or most of the other blatantly attention-seeking comments Musk has made.
The fact is that Tesla's primary customers are environmentally-conscious, which goes with more left-leaning politics, yet Muck choose the right-wing side, who typically deny climate change issues and hate electric cars.
He can have his opinions, but as he's not a politician, it was an extremely stupid business move to broadcast them so strongly. Or, maybe it's brilliant and he'll sell more Cybertrucks the more truck-driving RW customers than he'd ever sell Model-Xs to LW customers. But it does not look like it's working out that way.
But zero of this requires a conspiracy of the 1/6 of journalists who are unionized.
And it's laughable to accuse me of being media-agenda driven when I haven't lived in a household with a cable subscription for 2+ decades, and I treat all news media with great suspicion and work hard to find more accurate sources. While I've defended Musk on HN for his innovations at SpaceX, I also noticed that his executives have said that they have a team dedicated to handling Musk, creating a bubble around him to insulate the organization from his toxicly disruptive influence. There are thousands of other examples.
As the famous quote goes: "When the facts change, I change my mind; what do you do?"
If the misimpression created by the marketing term is corrected by the explicit and repeated warnings and instructions given to Tesla drivers, then the marketing term cannot be blamed for inattentive driving.
>This is not evidence, it is a theory that there is a conspiracy against Musk.
The coincidence is the evidence here.
>The fact is that Tesla's primary customers are environmentally-conscious, which goes with more left-leaning politics, yet Muck choose the right-wing side, who typically deny climate change issues and hate electric cars.
So you are, in fact, supporting my point, which is that the attacks on him intensified due to the political views he expressed.
Like I said:
"Both Musk and Tesla are far from perfect, but the lengths that people go to to attack them is obviously agenda-driven and a result of emotions"
Trying to blame Autopilot accidents on Tesla instead of inattentive drivers is example of that.
>btw, only about 17% of journalists are unionized
Which major newspapers and TV networks in the US are not unionized?
>He can have his opinions, but as he's not a politician
In a democracy, everyone is supposed to express their political opinions.
And I've articulated why I think that in this case.
In short, saying it’s “Full Self Driving (Supervised)” is not really enough.
The falsehood of the "Full Self-Driving" claims are generally known to existing customers, therefore it is ok to lie to new customers.
The name of the driver assist program even if inaccurate, did not mislead any of those drivers, as any driver who uses these features is amply informed/warned that the features do not provide autonomous driving and don't obviate the requirement of the driver to remain fully engaged at all time.
Tesla are trying to have it both ways. They ADVERTISE and promote that it is "FULL Self-Driving" and "FSD", while simultaneously doing everything post-sale to ensure the driver is responsible for failures of FSD.
I wasn't originally in that camp, but your arguments are convincing me that Tesla does in fact bear some responsibility for the crashes, despite the facts you point out that Tesla post-sale promotes driver attention.
Despite all Tesla's efforts towards driver attention, Tesla ALSO broadcasts conflicting messages which do give the impression that FSD is more capable and safe than it is. What percent responsible? I don't know, but I think it's above 5%, especially for new drivers, who have been more exposed to the sales pitch and less to the documentation.
There is no credible case to be made that any Tesla driver is unaware of Tesla's stance, that the driver assist features cannot provide autonomous driving and that the driver must always remain engaged.
The warnings are absolutely clear and reiterated so they could not be missed. If you want to challenge that notion in court, be my guest.
I mean, you do realize that there is a class action against Tesla for misleading customers with the names of their products, right? This is actively being fought in the courts. That alone should prove that people feel misled by the marketing.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-must-face-vehicle-owner...
> There is no credible case to be made that any Tesla driver is unaware of Tesla's stance, that the driver assist features cannot provide autonomous driving and that the driver must always remain engaged.
You’re free to believe what you want, but this is far from the closed case you are portraying it to be. In short, that’s just like your opinion man.
But more to the point: being misled into purchasing it is entirely different than being misled while driving it, and blaming an accident on thinking the auto assist didn't need their attention as a result.
That is not what the lawsuit is alleging.
It stands to reason that if there was anything approaching a credible case that any driver thinks they don't need to be engaged while driving a Tesla, because of misleading naming of its driver assist features, some law firm somewhere would have organized a lawsuit on behalf of accident victims by now.
So the evidence supports my position.
> If you want to challenge that notion in court, be my guest.
I pointed out that it is, in fact, being challenged. Right now. And has already been several times before, with Tesla settling out of court specifically to prevent any repercussions from a guilty verdict.
If you wanted to talk about successful cases, then that should have been your argument. At this point, you’re just moving the goal posts.
Mix that with Elon had a habit of commenting on crashes [2] to keep good marketing about FSD. And like who cares if it was "Auto lane control" vs "Autopilot" that let somebody drive the car from the passenger seat but Elon made sure to let everybody know "Autopilot" wasn't engaged.
[1]: https://www.motortrend.com/news/nhtsa-tesla-autopilot-invest...
[2]: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/elon-musk-says-autopilo...
If the only true part is that the system disengages at some point, then "kind of" is much too generous for that kind of rumor-mongering.
But if I ever see some real proof I'll spread it far and wide.
The other problem is that it cracks all the time and they get louder as they get deeper, so it's not just if it cracks it is if it cracks enough or more than expected. Which straw will break the camels back. It is just such an insanely awful metric.
On the hypothetical assumption that I had some faith in the models at what point will I have the life or death fight over whether or not that last loud crack was statistically significant.
> "What we heard, in my opinion ... sounded like a flaw/defect in one area being acted on by the tremendous pressures and being crushed/damaged," Stanley wrote in the email, a copy of which has been obtained by CNN.
> "From the intensity of the sounds, the fact that they never totally stopped at depth, and the fact that there were sounds at about 300 feet that indicated a relaxing of stored energy /would indicate that there is an area of the hull that is breaking down/ getting spongy,"
It's more impressive that the sub continued to work while giving warning signs for 4 years.
https://abc7.com/titan-submersible-2023-incident-titanic-oce...
They seem to have run fewer tests on the new hull, though. From the outside, it looks like one of the lessons they learned from earlier tests was that tests can create bad news, so if you're optimizing for the best reports back to investors you should stop running tests.
But _only_ testing in prod is bad.
ETA: Just to sharpen the point, this is clearest when considering digital noise and error correction. It is easier for error correction codes to indicate a corrupted message than it is to provide the correct message.
An accurate measurement of signal-to-noise is just some power levels and basic knowledge of the shapes of the signals. It's easy to figure out and doesn't help you read back your data. It helps you configure appropriate transmission settings and doesn't do much else.
Of course you could do a water or air-pressure leak test on the plumbing pretty easily, and you would likely do that on the first 30 engines...
But if you have confidence in your build process, maybe the juice isn't worth the squeeze on (say) a direct contact ultrasound void check on every square millimeter of the part.
It's all about "how expensive is it to run the test" vs "what is the likelihood the test catches an issue" vs "what's the cost of failing while everyone is watching?"
Same reason SpaceX went from dry-dress-rehersals to wet-dress-rehearsals to separate-static-fire-before-launch to hold-down-for-three-seconds-before-launch... The hold-down -before-launch is an integration test that covers everything the previous tests do, so eventually you can start removing redundant tests.
In rockets/aerospace, where the failure of any one of a thousand different parts means instant disintegration, checks are always worth the squeeze. Everyone talks about building rockets on the cheap and accepting a slightly-higher failure rate, but in reality that doesn't work. Even a tiny increase in component fault rates translates to total mission failure once multiplied across thousands of vital parts. The answer isn't to not check but to find ways to more efficiently and more thoroughly check each part. This is only more true if one considers reusable rockets where components will be expected to participate in multiple launches.
To make matters worse the failure modes don't only affect the launch vehicle itself. A failure of a rocket likely means a total loss of the payload. It also runs the risk of damage/loss of the launch pad, support structures, and hapless down range victims.
Rockets contain a significant amount of stored chemical energy, enough to get the payload mass into a stable orbit of the Earth. If you release all of that energy at once as an explosion it will cause a significant amount of damage. Rockets aren't something to goof around with and make assumptions about safety.
The problem with that idea is that you won't be legally allowed to launch again until you root cause and fix the failure, which can take months (or years if you're Blue Origin). Also, your insurance rates tend to go up a lot when your rockets blow up regularly, which tends to push customers away.
In practice it doesn't work.
Notes: Astra said they were going to pursue this strategy. It was not well received by potential customers and they basically had to walk it back.
What are you talking about? SpaceX's Falcon 9 is arguably the most reliable rocket ever made. They've launched hundreds of times in a row without failure.
If your point is that they're blowing up Starship prototypes, well... they're in the middle of a development program and they're not flying customer payloads.
Now they are launching an landing[1] safetly, but it's boring and the news show a cute puppy instead.
So for most people the rate of explosions vs launching is skewed.
[1] It's crazy that landing rockets is boring now.
Only if you want to launch from US. I guess with a 160 countries there will some with the right area for a launch pad with way laxer requirements.
Good luck with that.
Exploding rockets are a very serious public safety risk since they're >90% propellant. Even Russia grounded Soyuz until they root caused its launch failure. From what I can gather China has the same policy, although they're very quiet about any launch failures that happen, so it harder to tell.
In many cases the cargo is more precious than the rocket so you need reliable rockets.
Unless this was something like a cruise missile dropped at altitude where a failure isn't a big deal.
Also, failures might reduce the accuracy of the missile, leading to potential civilian causalities.
If failure isn't a big deal, then the weapon should no have been used. An ALCM costs millions. The destruction it causes is part of a larger battle plan. Should it not work properly then friendly forces may die. Should it work properly then enemy forces may die. The effectiveness of such a weapon is never not a big deal.
If system A costs 1k quid but only works 50% of the time, while system B works 99% of the time but costs 10k quid, system A actually makes a lot more sense. On average you are going to spend a lot less money for the same outcome.
The rocket itself is purely a delivery system for a payload after all.
But it isn't about destroying a bunch of them. Cut corners on checks and you very quickly blow up all of them. Any slight increase in the failure rate of individual parts, saving a few pennies, multiplies exponentially across the entire rocket into total system failure. So the money-saving approach is actually to test test and retest, to cram down the failure rates so low that the cumulative rate become acceptable (about 1%).
ready to build many Webb telescopes?
Day 1 patches for space travel?
Thanks, I hate it.
This is simply inaccurate. You can spend months and hundreds of millions of dollars running scanning electron microscopes over all of your parts - no one does this, because it's not "worth the squeeze". The question is where to draw the line, and I have no idea what your opinion is there.
You create a process, you test that process so that you understand its limits, and then you make sure to follow that process.
Now I don't know if 3D printing rocket parts actually works and I have my doubts but this startup is currently testing the process and they will figure out its limits. That's the whole point of R&D.
And then test and go back to see what kinds of defects were apparent in the photos.
The layers are really thin, so manually inspecting them would slow down the printing process drastically. Then, ultimately, what even can you do if there's a defect? The layer has been laid already. If material is missing somewhere, you could have the machine go back and add it, but if there's excess material somewhere, or it's in a form that the machine can't fix, there's not a lot to be done, particularly in applications like rocketry, where your structural strength tolerance are very tight.
right, but this is a problem in any modern precision machining, and it has been (mostly) conquered to a degree that we can produce very precise things in an almost entirely automated fashion.
>If material is missing somewhere, you could have the machine go back and add it
laser sintering is easier to audit than a normal fdm style print in a lot of ways if you care to take the time to do it. The process can be paused fairly easy with the right machine and right environment, the product can be weighed mid-process, it can have all sorts of vision and laser metrology done to the product midway through production; whatever -- and the mid print failure rate is astronomically lower than extrusion based methods.
it doesn't seem that unbelievable to me.
The most common form for metal precision production is powder bed fusion
You deposit a whole layer of powder and a laser melts the desired parts
I'm not sure that's sufficient to eschew any other non destructive testing, but it is great information.
Differential cooling is an issue, and is one that isn't apparent until the layers have already been printed.
If their process actually works, whatever they are doing isn't trivial.
There are various types of non-destructive testing that could be integrated into a larger scale 3D printer for post-production analysis, and it's a direction I'm surprised there hasn't been more movement in.
What amateurs are at work here? This plainly is not true and if you believe this can work you can not be trusted to be anywhere near an engineering project.
Besides, the question I have is why 3D printing? There are innumerable ways to manufacture a rocket, why did they choose 3D printing? If it is because they think you don't need qualification and testing for the produced hardware they should not be allowed to launch anything they make.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz165f1g8-E
I'm sure that there are lots of problems with this approach, but it is not as obvious as your comment makes it out to be.
My understanding is that there's interesting things in the aerospace industry that are very difficult or sometimes impossible to machine from a single part in a conventional subtractive machining process. GE is doing it as well for the LEAP engines: https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/ge-aerospace-to-scale-th...
As an easy example, imagine a single-piece rocket nozzle with internal channels for delivering fuel and oxidizer. Pretty much impossible to machine and not that big of a deal* to do with additive manufacturing.
* Your mileage may vary, talk to your doctor for details. :)
P.S. Nick checks out.
I take their claims at face value. Either they are for some weird reason lying about not doing QA or they are extremely negligent in their manufacturing. Granted, I can not exclude the first option, but to be honest that might make the company look even worse.
>You don't know me or what I would do if I were or were not involved in aerospace
True. I still hope that you are never involved in any aerospace or remotely safety critical project.
Also, like I said, you have no idea of the emphasis I place on safety when the situation and funding merit it.
We know that Elon's SpaceX has many machines inspecting 3D printed (and other) parts, as per the SpaceX factory tours on YouTube. https://youtu.be/xahiWQQKw7Y?si=UGZ1u9xTil5iYoBi&t=71
Also, SpaceX blows up very few (none?) operational rockets. They only tend to blow up in novel ways while testing new technology.
Bear in mind that the SpaceX Raptor is a cutting edge engine - full flow staged combustion is hard.
i don't honestly believe there's anyone building a rocket like this that isn't concerned about the rockets success
Sure, you can use whatever appropriate manufacturing processes you want. But none of them can replace QA.
i have no idea what they do, im not in this industry
Rocket nozzles are heat limited. You could get more trust out of them only if the nozzle would not melt. So you do a lot of tricks to cool it. One of those many tricks is that you circulate your rocket fuel as a coolant in the wall of the nozzle. This requires an intricate web of many tiny pipes which form the wall of the nozzle.
Typically these are constructed by hand by brazing together many many pipes. That takes forever. In contrast additive methods seem to perform well in this application.
This is standard stuff nowadays. Everyone seems to be doing it. I'm not sure what is your objection. If you don't believe me listen to Tony Bruno: https://youtu.be/Bh7Xf3Ox7K8?si=YVDIDq1bvKeCuvY9&t=1509
> This plainly is not true
Which particular part are you objecting to?
I am. It is that it's an Indian company. How dare these brown people do something cutting-edge in science or engineering!
"Removing the need for postfabrication qualification" doesn't mean "perfectly detects errors" it means "detects errors within our business specs and we expect it to be profitable within that margin".
Maybe they have a model in mind where it works. If you use dozens of engines like SpaceX's Starship you can tolerate more engine issues. Of maybe they want to launch really cheap payloads on inexpensive rockets. But in the parameters of traditional rocket design, QA on your engines is one of the last things you want to save money on.
Reminds me of that failing nuclear startup that tried “fake it until you make it” with the US government.
But skipping qualification testing is indeed a weird reason. I doubt you can skip test fires.
With 3D printing you can create geometries that are simply not possible with any other manufacturing processes.
The issue is not 3D printing. The issue is deluding yourself by thinking that somehow 3D printing is magical and you get to skip qual. You don’t.
They are sticking with 3-D printing of the engines though, and have been testing their next-gen Aeon R engine.
Significant military implications as well [0].
There is a significant spy-sat race going on in the region right now [1] with China, India, UAE, Saudi Arabia, US, Japan, South Korea, North Korea, Russia, Iran, Israel, etc all investing in capabilities in the region.
Also has an impact in enhancing India's Ballistic Missile strategy used to combat a two-front war [2], because Missiles are to Indian military strategy what Drones are for Chinese military strategy.
Also highlights how the India-US relationship is built by the Indian-American diaspora. The VC who funded Angikul is Anand Rajaraman - the Stanford professor who started "Big Data" with Ullman, was one of the earliest investors in Facebook, and lead Amazon Marketplace after getting acquired by Amazon early in it's history (Marketplace was originally an Indian e-commerce startup called Junglee).
As India gets richer, and America's immigration system gets more and more rickety, a reverse brain and capital drain has started to form, much like with Chinese Americans in the late 2000s.
[0] - https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/agnikul-showcased-more-...
[1] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Defense/China-and-India-lea...
[2] - https://www.usiofindia.org/publication-journal/Evolution-of-...
It's completely insane that we allow mass migration of people with no money and no skills and make it incredibly difficult for the most valuable immigrants to get in.
It makes perfect sense when you understand the principal-agent problem and the current political landscape.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...
You have to be way more specific when you want to actually be insightful about the topic.
You don't? There's no visa for that category.
(it's still no picnic being in that category, unable to register for social security or even take an internal flight)
It feels bad to say this, but to build a good well integrated state, integration is key, you cannot integrate people into a society, if you cannot even control the immigration rate. You can't just let people come to your country illegally, setup shop, and then tell everyone 'Cant do anything about it folks'.
The human cost is paid in everything, the cost americans need to worry about, is whether the safety and future prospects of americans is safeguarded, not of people who break laws to illegally immigrate.
It's like having sympathy for a next door neighbour child who is uncared for, and serving him/her food, while you're own child cries and starves to death.
America isnt a country, with limitless resources, and enough food,housing,healthcare to feed everybody, stop treating it like it.
Also, I'm not sure the people who arrive here illegally are as ready to integrate with America's culture, as some americans are ready to integrate with illegal migrants.
I understand life is cruel, and maybe america should even do good things for it, but not at the cost of watching americans starve to death, veterans getting overdosed on the streets wishing after years of suffering to just die and be at peace, and watching them not being able to help them, because our resources are too stretched, Charity starts at home. Even the people who migrate illegally here, they'll help their own first, before even sparing one thought towards you.
One needs to be realistic about certain things, it's perfectly doable to protect your own borders, Singapore does it against Malaysia, India does it against Pakistan and Bangladesh (big borders), China does it against neighbouring countries, most Asian countries can protect their own borders.
Why can't america?
I don't know how many folks around me broke the law to immigrate to America, but whether or not they broke the law to come here they faced a lot of racism, classism, and suspicion. I've been in the same area for about 20 years, and if I'm not a minority in my neighborhood it's close. It's the immigrants who are kind to me, help me keep my house secure, and trade goods and services with me. They even help me practice my awful Spanish with them. So in my case, yeah it's working out.
> America isnt a country, with limitless resources, and enough food,housing,healthcare to feed everybody, stop treating it like it.
America doesn't have limitless resources, but with 5% of the world's population it uses 25% of the world's resources [1]. To anybody's eyes that's going to look limitless.
I think simple laws of diffusion say that people are going to go where the resources are available. Whether it's politically tenable doesn't matter, this is human nature since we started walking.
[1] https://www.re-sources.org/2020/05/online-lesson-material-wo...
My son's middle school is a DISD public magnet in a wealthy area called Preston Hollow. The middle school is probably 85-90% hispanic and despite my kids being 1/2 Mexican they have faced enough racism and abuse that my wife and I have had multiple meetings with the administration to address it. African American kids face it even worse. One other anecdote, when my kids were in elementary some of their calsses were taught in Spanish because my kids and one other were the only ones who spoke English. The teachers, who barely spoke English themselves, got in trouble for that. Ironically, if you want true diversity in Dallas schools you have to pay/be admitted to the elite private schools.
All this to say, in my experience, neighborhoods consisting of mostly undocumented immigrants and cities welcoming of undocumented immigrants aren't that great... unless you're an undocumented immigrant.
I'm seeing this firsthand. Where I live in a mid-size university town, 20-30 years ago there was practically zero illegal immigration, undocumented persons. It was fairly unheard of. Now there are a vast number of Spanish-only speaking illegal immigrants. My apartment complex in the span of a few years has become 3/4 illegal immigrants that only speak Spanish, almost entirely young adult males. They harrass anyone that isn't Hispanic and have tried to push all other tenants out of the complex. The police are called frequently for violence issues, and being uneducated young adult males they drink heavily and trash the place constantly.
It can't be fixed either. If you just remove the gigantic base of illegal immigrants GDP will plunge by at least 10%. Nobody will do that. There is no path forward other than chaos. No serious immigration reform will get passed near-term.
Funny you should mention private school though because my mom did send me to a private high school. At its most diverse it was probably 90% white, and I wonder if that colors my experience. I did decide to learn Spanish there and ended up minoring in it in university.
One of my daughters goes to a predominately Latino high school, and my other daughter goes to a mostly white Jr. High. My oldest doesn't get any harassment like you describe, so my advice is to come to Longmont. Maybe because it's still a city in flux we humans haven't had a chance yet to revert to our normal xenophobic ways.
Haha but yeah when I go to the tortilleria to try my Spanish the people behind the counter almost always respond politely but pointedly in English. I feel like such a dork.
For specialized labor, there is always a question of possible espionage and back-channel tech transfer. This is not so much perhaps for India as opposed to other technological rivals, but it may be one of the considerations in the immigration policy being counterintuitive.
As an example of how strict immigration policy is, the crew were made to stay on the boat throughout, including while parts of the bridge were blown up.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-monday-ed...
This article goes into the actual reasons, the visas only came into play during the second month:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/18/us/baltimore-bridge-dali-ship...
Basically the company would get in trouble if the crew left, and they are too cheap to hire replacements, so they threaten them.
There are more than 50 countries right now standing with begging bowls outside the IMF cause their economies have no hope of growing without help. As long as that list has no hope of shrinking, people who live there and recognize that reality, are going to find ways to get out by hook or crook.
Immigration is a symptom of growing global inequality. Without inequality reducing no rules or walls are going to stop the incoming waves.
In other words, one could say its insane that we draw imaginary lines on paper and then confine human beings to those lines based on the accident of their birth location.
The reason people organized as tribes matters. Its part of our very nature. And those tribes also respected imaginary lines. Even animals respect some imaginary lines. Eventually, some may be accepted in the tribe. But no one would just walk in to the tribe. Its not how nature works.
>>> The rights paid for in blood, sweat, and tears, as you say, were wrenched from the hands of the kinds of people
So by that assertion , wherever you live, you should vacate right now. Because if you take that line of thinking to its conclusion, it means that there are no property rights, and therefore, no security at all. And, there's the conundrum that the entire world disagrees with you, and has borders which they protect to varying degrees.
>>> (aristocrates) who draw borders and consist entirely of statements that are borderless assertions
The aristocrats are actually elected representatives. Its nice to paint them with the aristocrat brush, hey ill even join you there because i despise them too, but taking that tack doesn't change the fact that those are still elected representatives. And they made those assertions in our behalf. On behalf of free people.
>>> of the value of human beings, not citizens I don't know what that means. If you are arguing for inalienable rights, I agree there. But inalienable rights do not include the right to force a group of humans to carry the weight of a stranger. That's aggression over a human's inalienable rights.
>>> that doesn't mean that enshrining that reality in law or even nurturing it is morally right. It is morally right because you have the right to protect yourself and your kin. That's what borders are. Arguing otherwise goes against nature and against what's right. Once you leave your comfortable home to write on HN and instead house some malnourished somalians, maybe we will start paying attention to you.
All you advocate is charity, by usurping your tribe's rights. That is an act of aggression, and i'm calling you out on it. That's what politicians do. Maybe do something different from them, and lead by example ? (do as i say, not as i do, seems a fitting descripting here)
It's true that now those kinds of people are often directed towards politics and become the elected officials which you assert justify the borders, but in fact most of the borders we live with were never drawn with any consent of the people living there. The vast majority of borders are pure objects of fiat power (especially the border over which the immigration you have a chip on your shoulder about, which was quite literally determined via war).
Herein I'm not advocating charity, which is, nevertheless, a fundamental human virtue. I am advocating that human beings, if they have any rights or dignity at all, have those rights and dignities by virtue of their humanity and not by virtue of where their parents happened to be when they were born. Communities of humans shouldn't tolerate freeloaders, but the people coming across the border are by and large the exact opposite: people willing to work harder for less than many people living here. If you are really so concerned with social parasites, let me suggest you look to institutions like health insurance companies, landlords, etc.
You can't understand the dynamics of a colony by observing 1 ant. Similarly, you can't understand borders by focusing on who or when they were drawn.
Borders are the equilibrium point of the strength and culture of a particular tribe over a very long period of time developed thru their communal effort. Borders will move or disappear when a tribe gets too strong or weak. Its a process that has always taken place in nature at all levels, for all time.
You can choose to look at the ant, and the ant may appeal feckless and it has a very short lifespan.
You are just stuck in the wrong domain. We are talking about natural processes. You seem to insist to suggest this is a different domain.
Almost no one uses liquid fueled Ballistic Missiles any more (I think China is the only one) because they are so operationally terrible.
The eventual rocket sounds like it's a hair larger than RocketLab's Electron. Which is struggling to reach profitability after being in its segment for 7-8 years mostly without peer competition. Largely thanks to SpaceX's transporter (and now bandwagon) missions sucking most of the volume out of the market.
Making a working rocket is undoubtedly an amazing accomplishment. But at the same time, I really wish that companies stopped making small-lift rockets. There's just no way for them to work financially.
India does as well as China.
But they are cheap! Very cheap. Read the 3rd article I linked - it's the actual Indian government strategy around BMD.
> But they are cheap! Very cheap. Read the 3rd article I linked - it's the actual Indian government strategy around BMD.
The only place that liquid rockets are specifically mentioned:
> Scientists are also working towards making interceptors used in both layers operate on solid fuels. This is because chemicals in the liquid fuels corrode the fuel storage tanks easily. Therefore, most of the missiles are not kept in a ‘ready-to-fire’ mode. Also, it takes a minimum of three to four hours to fill the liquid fuel in the missile,9 a hardly acceptable scenario wherein precious time will be lost in case of an emergency.
It seems pretty clear that:
1. This particular rocket has no military application because the rockets that India uses use hypergolic propellant (presumably UDMH and NTO), while the planned rocket uses LOx and RP1, which are cryogenic propellants (well, at least the LOx is).
2. India is pretty clearly trying to move away from liquid fueled rockets because, as I said in my previous comment, the operational aspects are really terrible.
Making a small launch vehicle is seen as necessary to attract the level of funding needed for a medium or heavy lift launch vehicle
I get that.
But it seems like every VC on the planet had the same idea at the same exact time because there's like 50+ small lift rockets in various stages of development. And approximately 0% of them have a shot at profitability.
I have real doubts that any of them that aren't backed by a nation-state will be able to fund raise and survive long enough to build a medium lift rocket on the back of their experience.
India has enormous potential and it is amazing to witness the rise of its tech scene.
They then further claim you don't need to do any post-manufacturing qualifications, which is absolute nonsense. So it's either misreporting or it's an indication of Indian incompetence/lying.
WDon't believe everything you read in headlines written by people with no understanding of the space industry. If you want to read about the industry, read about it on industry specific sites (like spacenews.com) or from industry specific reporters (Eric Berger or Stephen Clark at ArsTechnica). Davenport at Washington Post is good too.
Couple of points that are missed in the article:
1. 3D printing is a way of bringing down assembly costs - the geometry they print is quite intricate, and it allows much better performance. The disadvantage is that it wouldn't survive multiple launches, but these are meant to be single-use rockets anyway so it doesn't matter. This is a way to build a semi-cryo engine relatively cheap.
2. They are doing it _really_ conservative; three attempted launches of which two were cancelled in the last two minutes (the fourth succeeded). But they always err on the side of caution. It's impressive enough that they're able to cancel so close to launch without losing the vehicle.
3. Here's the launch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGWruZR4rSg
Control of multiple engines is non-trivial. You get fun stuff like plume interactions between the engines.
Raptor 1, 2, and 3:
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/07/spacex-further-improve...
3D printing is already an industry standard and nothing this company did with relation to its engine manufacturing is anything special. They also appear to have lied that no post-manufacturing qualification is required.
While 3D printing allows printing shapes that cannot be forged or cast, testing is always needed as part of the manufacturing process feedback loop. X-ray and dye penetration nondestructive testing check for abnormalities on accessible services, but destructive testing is needed sawing samples into slices to also check them for hidden defects.
Is there something about the topic of rocketry that you expected would keep it away from HN?
we got regulations, but can they be enforced well enough?
Select your launch location, orbital inclination, payload mass and then 'Build'.
And another more detailed form at: https://agnikul.in/#/book