Some people with insomnia think they're awake when they're asleep
scientificamerican.com
scientificamerican.com
Used to be a big problem when my dad would wake me up at 4am to hunt as a kid. Sometimes people tell me we had conversations and i was making eye contact. I have no option but to believe it bc ive heard it so many times now
I’d like to be able to blame this on some kind of medical problem, but I think mostly I just stayed up late playing Counterstrike too much. :P
This is a hilarious mental image
For anyone else who has one: if you double click the third (alarm) button, you can change the default 1 minute snooze. You can also press the first two buttons at the same time to test the alarm going off without sound or the right two buttons to test with sound (albeit quieter than a real alarm).
edit: rrr_oh_man beat me to it, that's what I get for re-watching their video :D
(It's 00:15 here as I'm submitting this comment; I'm fully wake and alert, as opposed to how I was 3-4 hours ago.)
(And none of the "warm light" crap, that just makes me sleepy even if I'm awake. Neutral or cold only. I'd go for high-CRI ones if I could find them in LED strip format.)
I'll then drink the water, because it's easy, and if that's not enough to get me on track, at least I'll have to pee sooner.
It's a nice concept, though the execution isn't perfect. The biggest flaw, which may have been fixed since, is that the power supply decoupling isn't good enough, such that when the batteries get low and the alarm tries to make a noise, the clock detects it as a touch, which instantly snoozes the alarm. We haven't had it since the original batteries though, which were ironically the ones Lexon supplied.
N.B. These are only just big enough to put a glass of water on top, and it might not play well with the touch sensitivity.
You'll be fully conscious - you just don't retain the memory. Its like driving on a route you've driven thousands of times or tying your shoe laces - both activities require conscious effort at the time, but no (detailed) memory is retained about the effort afterwards.
Shock clock also has puzzles you can use, or I have a QR code In my kitchen that I need to scan to stop being zapped.
Similar experiences where i wake up on the floor bc i must have rolled out of bed over to my phone in my sleep.
Best guess is it helps with waking up slowly over 15 minutes instead of being jolted awake when the alarm first goes off.
I remember getting apps that made you solve maths problems before the alarm would go off.
Crazy to think.
Now I've got kids and it's the opposite, even if I'm away from them I'll wake early. And I never have deep sleep like that, I think I've been trained to come to attention quickly from night time wake ups.
I love this quote! I wish I could blame my poor sleep hygiene on anything but myself lol
Sleep disorders really compound other problems, and they'll be pretty thankful later in life to have caught any disorders early before they've done a lot of damage.
I’ve also had dreams where I’ve known it was a dream. Eg something would happen in the dream I didn’t like and I’d say “it’s my dream, so I’m changing it”
I can't claim it's 100% successful, I've been known to do the math and go back to sleep. But when that happens I always remember it, so at that point it's more of a laziness problem :D
We’d have sex and I’d have no recollection of it. Fortunately, my “sleeping” self is still a good lay. Other times, I’ve “woken up” mid intercourse or kissing.
I’ve since had to tell every woman I’ve been in bed with that it might happen on an off chance. Interestingly - none have shown any concern! Maybe it’s more common than I think it is.
I think that may just be normal for some people.
I've begun taking a small amount of CBD in the form of an edible a few hours before going to bed (a quarter of a 5 mg gummy), and I have minimal sleep issues now.
For my spouse I highlighted the cracked windows and the house shifted on it's foundation. I tried using circles under everyone's eyes but she insisted those were from food allergies.
A 1.25mg dose of CBD is essentially homeopathic levels. Either you're confused on the dosage or experiencing a placebo effect.
Where is this number from?
This one too.
1/4 "serving size" (if you will) isn't homeopathic, ~~and aligns pretty closely with the recommended dose of the only FDA approved CBD medication~~ (see edit below):
> Increase in weekly increments of 5 mg/kg/day (2.5 mg/kg twice daily).
Edit: I'm dumb and mixing mg and mg/kg. This would be 400mg/day for an average adult. Still not homeopathic.
https://www.epidiolexhcp.com/dosing/dosing-and-administratio...
Though the ~~recommended dose~~ (again, see edit below) for various activities does vary wildly:
> post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD): 1.5 mg
> difficulty sleeping: 300 mg
Edit: Turns out that's just the dosage that was administered during one of the studies, not necessarily the recommended treatment dosage.
> Despite these early findings and data from two case reports in which CBD improved sleep quality in a single pediatric patient with PTSD and four patients with Parkinson’s disease, we identified only one randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, study with sleep as the primary outcome measure. In this trial, 27 healthy volunteers received either oral CBD (300 mg dissolved in corn oil) or placebo. CBD did not alter any sleep measures (e.g., self-rated sleep quality or polysomnography examinations) relative to placebo.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7880228/
We really need better studies of this stuff...
Homeopathic levels are a vanishingly small chance of their being a single molecule of the notional ingredient in a dose. 1.25mg is not even remotely “essentially homeopathic”.
And if that effect were satisfactory, as it sounds, why would that matter?
Would you even know if it was a psychogenic remedy to what was probably a psychogenic malady in the first place, rather than a peculiar, individual sensitivity that just hasn't been identified in the sparse research on CBD? (You would not)
I don't think either of us have insomnia. Both of us do have other mostly-managed health issues that occasionally cause us to stay up with racing thoughts, but the two phenomena aren't really associated with each other. (Also, I think it happens to my partner more because they use unfiltered screens late at night. If I accidentally use a device without blue light filtering it's much more likely for me to be unable to fall asleep. So not "real" insomnia.)
I'd like to but that much money doesn't live in my pocket. It's on the list of stuff I hope for >62.
US
> but any country with public healthcare (most of the first world)
You may not be familiar with US healthcare but the US both does and doesn't have public healthcare. It generally depends on which political party dominates the state gov.
> you [someone else] can do a sleep study free or low copayment.
How nice!
> A basic CPAP you can usually rent,
Not without a Rx.
> and you can switch off call home functions on all the ones I've seen.
That's cool but we're talking about something different - collecting data not blocking it. Specifically, the data collected by CPAP that's used to lower AHI.
CPAP makers like ResMed lock their data behind proprietary formats. The software that can read proprietary CPAP data is federally limited to Drs.
Similar to CBD, IIRC, one would have to take very large amounts of CBD to produce any statistically significant effect on one's sleep, and CBD gummies are not the most bioavailable CBD there is.
My guess is it's placebo rather than anything else.
Seems to be RCTs that dispute that?
This has been my experience with melatonin too.
I usually wake up after 3-4 hours and find it hard to get back to sleep after. I have no issues getting to sleep the first time.
Taking melatonin in the evening before I sleep (even a high dose of a few mg) doesn't affect whether I wake up, but if I take it immediately after I wake up, it helps me to fall asleep again for the rest of the night.
My sleep issues seem to be caused by stress, so maybe CBD would be good for me.
If it doesn't help, you're out twenty bucks, if it does it could literally add years to your life.
> “Rhinomed Mute” Snore Stopper Nasal Dilator for Snore Reduction
Have you ever been evaluated for sleep apnea? That's how it used to feel to me: I would feel like it took me 45-minutes to an hour to fall asleep.
Once I started using a CPAP, I fell asleep almost instantly.
I've long considered manufacturing and selling something that does that, but I think the homeopathists have the market sewn up.
For YEARS I've wondered why I get a buzz from CBD, when it's "not psychoactive".
It's incredibly affirming to know I'm not the only one.
As for flower, I feel "full" while others have more, although I'll feel like more before they do (as they've had like half as much again as me).
The big thing is different ppl seem to have different sensitivities to different cannabinoids. This probably means something about the relative densities of CB1 vs CB2 receptors
A disc herniation caused me pain all night until it eventually destroyed my circadian rhythm. Even after it healed and the pain went away I had terrible sleep disruption. Up every 90 minutes, couldn't fall asleep until 4 am, waking up at 4 am. The works. Going on a few months.
Then I found sleep restriction.
First two weeks were brutal, but then biology takes over. And just like that, in a couple weeks, you rebuild you ability to fall asleep naturally and you're back to normal.
And in retrospect, this is exactly the approach we took to sleep training our young children. I swear by it.
Get up when the alarm rings, no naps?
Ed: Ah, I see - mechanism is basically that - but the addition of not going to bed "too early" (compared to when you plan to get up):
> Some sleep-restriction methods involve shortening a person’s time in bed to the average amount that they actually sleep per night. Other methods delay a person’s bedtime.” For example, If a person objectively sleeps for 5.5 hours, the experts allow the person to be in bed only for six hours. A preliminary lab study in which participants delayed their regular bedtime by two hours showed that such sleep restriction can reduce the number of arousals during REM.
If you can find a way to watch this doco it goes into the topic in detail. (RIP Michael Mosley)
https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-series/australias-sleep-r...
This is separate from the fact that ICUs are unforgivably noisy and chaotic. We will look at this part of medical history with horror. Yes, I do understand that making things appreciably better for patients in ICU is a massive and complex undertaking. I am not at all blaming the staff and docs.
He is likely referring to FFI. This is a genetic disorder. You cannot "catch" it. Your anxiety won't cause this.
If you are the kind of person who "can't sleep because you stress about not sleeping", then you can ignore this, your sleep issues are due to anxiety.
And the good news for people who have sleep issues due to anxiety: At some point, your body will win and force you to sleep.
In the end my sleep issues were caused by anxiety disorder. Once I got on medication for that, I didn't have any further issues. Marijuana, sleeping pills, whatever, they're all just masking the symptoms of some other problem.
That realization has helped me stress out a lot less about "not getting enough sleep" when there's an important even the next day (which makes it easier to find sleep in turn).
I suspect the type of state I just described (not the breathing part) is something most people sometimes experience. I don’t think it is unusual. Though I don’t think I’ve often heard people describe it in detail.
Does it seem plausible to you that you were perhaps, “20% asleep, but 80% awake” during that time?
Edit: also, my understanding is that lying still and resting can work as a partial imperfect substitute for some amount of sleep (though not like, in a way that can be sufficient long-term)
It's like there's something building up in my brain that's blocking real REM sleep, and cleaning it out results in the subjective experience of a migraine.
This happens to me when I go to bed while thinking hard on a specific problem, usually related to my startup.
It starts off awake with regular thinking, but then at some point it becomes surreal and events that have no cause and effect or basis in reality start occuring.
When I feel an "aha" moment where I become of the surreal nature of my recent thoughts, my memories cease and I assume I transition to real sleep.
In some cases, I wake up and when I check the time my 30 minutes of "thinking" actually occured over ~3 hours.
I find it fun, and as part of my self sleep experiments I try to even recreate it.
Its become my way of detecting that I'm falling asleep: "oh, that is such a weird, ridiculous thought, I must be falling asleep".
Of course, this is me, I am a thoroughly weird person. I understand that some other people may find it unsettling.
Guess I got some sleep after all.
Specifically, my understanding was that a complete lack of sleeping is rather fatal.
It didn't change until I developed a serious yearning for quality time in the morning. 'Quality' is any span where you do not have to be conscious of the passage of time (yet). First 5am and now 4:30am, the span from awakening 4:30 until 7:00 when work begins for example, was enough to impose a clean 24 hour cycle of habit.
The next hurdle was that I sleep with a loud fan which helps mask environmental noise and helps me to sleep. But at 4:30am it means that the cell phone alarm would have to be very loud and I'd typically awaken apartment neighbors through thin walls who sleep in silence. I'd hear them moving around and know that I had probably awakened them.
My solution was a programmable digital clock relay. At 4:30am it turns off the fan, and my mind is conditioned to awaken instantly while the fan is spinning down. Sometimes I even hear the 'click' of the relay. Then I get up quickly, because the cell phone is just out of reach and set 4:32am and I know it will be penetrating and shrill in the silence. Getting up to turn it off breaks my first level of snooze-abuse syndrome. I now (correctly) associate snooze abuse with stress and unpleasant outcomes, call it 'maturity' if you like.
So now I can awaken with time to spare in 'silence' and my neighbors can stay asleep.
> For example, If a person objectively sleeps for 5.5 hours, the experts allow the person to be in bed only for six hours. A preliminary lab study in which participants delayed their regular bedtime by two hours showed that such sleep restriction can reduce the number of arousals during REM.
I Like how science and medicine are more frequently taking account individual differences into account in a measured and sensible way. That is as opposed to ignoring it or making everything statistics.
PSA: Remember kids, just say no to drugs.
"Significant sleep spells" - sometimes the data, sampled in 1-minute binning intervals, is a flat line - no difference, minute-to-minute, in motion (however significantly above baseline of an unoccupied mattress - I guess that's what the angel care sensors monitor - just the motion energy of breathing. Other times the data is really, really noisy. Is that different sleep or just different body position? Never figured it out. But "awake" is clearly visible - that's noise that never goes down to the "just breathing" baseline at all.
The algorithm I do use: Over a configurable number of samples, find maximum and minimum reading. Add the difference to an accumulator. Repeat. Once a minute, retrieve the accumulator and reset to zero. With 1-minute binning, it would be too slow to raise a "not breathing" alarm - but it's perfectly fine for post-analysis. I've used it for years, and can tell with a glance at the graph how bad the night was.
It's not quite lucid dreaming, though I think it isn't completely different (I've experimented with that a bit, and I work in neurotech/sleeptech).
This kind of sleep never felt restful by any means, though.
[edit]
Though I should clarify that in my dreams I usually finish the antiderivative (wrongly) when awake I usually just fail to finish the antiderivative.
I must usually accept these results, but occasionally, I don't, and that's often when I realize I'm dreaming - I literally cannot conjure up those steps at all, they simply don't exist.
Before I went to sleep, my inability to prove it had been bugging me all day long, and I suspected it'd be featured on the next morning's (way too early) final exam for my university course. I solved it in my dream, woke up, wrote on my whiteboard what I remembered and sure enough, it was correct. I worked it a few more times to cram it into my memory before running to my exam.
To my great delight, the ability to prove that theorem was featured heavily in one of the exam's questions, and helped me do quite well on the exam overall.
If I wake up remembering a dream, I write it down. Last entry... I voluntarily went for some experimental blood draw procedure secretly running in an abandoned building accessed by going past the end of a train station platform. Most people who take this procedure are kidnapped and forced to. The desk nurse was surprised I was there voluntarily. Does that mean this actually happens? No...
Entry before that: Passed by a contest on the way to some other stuff. Contestants were trying to most quickly free a live snake by chiseling it out of a frozen burger.
It's the same type of nonsense you can get by playing with LLM randomness settings if your LLM isn't fine tuned to delve and to apologize.
But this rarely happens because sleep is very important to me and I worked hard on my habits to get good sleep. Good sleep for me equals no memory of dreams.
It seems that memory splits when environment splits.
But that means (speculation warning) long-term memory circuits are switched into a different mode than during the day, and from an outside perspective they recall all sorts of random nonsense. That's probably what causes dreams. If the short term memory is unaffected and works normally, this explains why you can sometimes remember the nonsense when you wake up.
Sleep has been used as a form of regularization in neural networks before, although it's not in the transformer LLMs we're all using this year. This form of regularization makes the network generate outputs from no inputs, and then gradient-ascends (opposite direction from normal) away from those samples. Hey, that sounds a bit like human sleep, doesn't it?
But yes, it is deeply strange. A profound loss of familiar context. And with it the associated anchors of memory.
So yeah
From my experience meditating, one can go through stages of body paralysis, and then enter lucid dreaming states, while maintaining awareness.
Some advanced meditators claim to be able to be aware at all times, even in deep dreamless sleep.
But yeah, I've experienced the same thing, you think you haven't slept a second during the night but you probably have
Curiously, it's free for me in France, even in an private window.