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Comment by tjoff | Hacker News Reader

We've yet to see any mobile device where running another OS than the bundled one have been anything but a nightmare. This is done everywhere, android manufacturers constantly try to lock users in their own android shell, not to mention apple.

These devices are not multipurpose devices, they are built for a specific purpose and tailormade for that and nothing else. It is not in any sense equivalent to desktop/laptop-computers. Which is kind of apparent considering the limitations that Windows Phone, Android and iOS amount to.

Since Microsoft have expressed that secure boot must be optional on x86 it is quite easy to justify this rationally without resorting to the popular "typical evil Microsoft tactics" argument.

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I strongly disagree.

>> "These devices are not multipurpose devices".

These devices have chips which can run any algorithm you write. They are not hammers, or even calculators. They are computers. They also have GPS, motion sensors, cameras, and microphones. They are multipurpose enough to make phone calls, play games, run maps, and even power satellites: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/main/spheres_smart...

>> Since Microsoft have expressed that secure boot must be optional on x86 it is quite easy to justify this rationally...

Why does doing the right thing in once place give them license to do the wrong thing in another?

I appreciate the security value of secure boot, but ONLY as far as its purpose is to serve the customer. Which means the customer must be able to disable it.

No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstracted away. Just as your car isn't a computer, it has multiple computers that aid it but it is not a computer and you have no real interface with the computer itself. Just as my clock, just as my phone, just as my fridge.

I appreciate the security value of secure boot, but ONLY as far as its purpose is to serve the customer. Which means the customer must be able to disable it.

If you can disable it it doesn't serve the customer, because the customer is incompetent and would gladly disable it in exchange for a picture of a cat.

You don't buy a computer, you buy an android/windows/iOS device. Just as you don't buy a computer when you buy an Xbox360 or an PS3 - and because you haven't bought a computer you shouldn't really have any problems with the manufacturer locking you in. Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer! Sigh.

I never said I agreed with Microsoft, but it is a rational decision (a rational decision that Apple and pretty much all Android and WP manufacturers have made) that fits well withing the concept of all popular mobile OS's, if you don't buy into that then I guess your only bet is maemo/meego, because you surely don't run WP/android/iOS, right?

People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity.

Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have.

I'd much rather decide for myself what something "is", based on what it's actually made of, rather than what the manufacturer wants it to be.

Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer.

I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you buy into that then, well, you buy into that.

Your router probably is running Linux already. Most commodity routers do.

You guys are completely missing my point. Even though my router might be an arm-computer that runs linux - I can't even run linux on the damn thing (that binary blob that is shipped with the router could be any OS for I care, it's not as if my experience will be any better or worse if runs linux or DOS when everything is locked down and all I get access to is a simple webserver with an administrative page on)... Just as I can't run any other form of linux than android on my phone.

Yes, there are a lot of exceptions - routers that you can install alternative OS's on, I've installed OpenWRT and DD-WRT myself. But that's beside the point. Just because linux run on arm and my router has a arm cpu doesn't mean I can run linux on it.

I bought a router and I got a router. Then I installed something else on it and I could just as well have been using it to control the curtains in my bedroom instead - and I have every right to do that. Just as the manufacturer has the right to secure their product and in effect lock me out of that ability.

Now, if I had bought a computer that would be in a completely different ball game. But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it.

You actually _can_ in fact run sorts of Linux other than Android on your phone: http://linuxonandroid.blogspot.com/

"But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it."

really? You would have no objections to the router manufacturer trying to make your life a "living hell"?

For the most part manufacturers don't really care about people re purposing their devices for other goals unless it potentially leaves them legally liable for something (e.g a children's toy with small parts being repurposed as food).

People naturally re-purpose things all the time, for example using a bank note to do cocaine , an AOL CD as a coaster , a newspaper or deodorant to kill a wasp etc etc.

In fact a huge amount of human innovation comes from taking an existing thing and using it for something else, going back as far as the original hunters who took tree branches and used them to kill dinner.

The critical thing about computers is that their entire reason for existence is to be repurposed, a computer on it's own is useless.

What we in the software industry are in the business of doing is finding ways to repurpose computers and their entire appeal is that this is so easily done.

I would hate to live in a world where everything has one discreet purpose regardless of it's physical abilities, for example imagine having to purchase a separate TV for every channel you wish to watch.

You absolutely can run Linux on a router.

Smartphones and tablets are more powerful than any PC 15-20 years ago. Were those just appliances too?

I think you're trying to justify anti-competitive behavior by making a distinction where there isn't one.

All of the devices you mentioned -- Android device, PS3, and router -- are all computers. They are general purpose machines that are programmed for a certain set of tasks. The kinds of devices you mention can all be reprogrammed and are actively reprogrammed by people, sometimes for a similar purpose that they already performed and sometimes for completely different purposes.

Just because I buy a device from Manufacturer X does not mean that said device is and only can be what the manufacturer intended. When I own a device, I have the freedom to tinker with that device, including making that device do something it was never intended to do. That is what I as a hacker love about computing machines: they are what I make them when I reprogram them.

I agree on everything you say.

But that doesn't mean that the manufacturer have to play ball and make it easy for you.

Also, when we as consumers chose the iPhone we at the same said that we don't care the slightest about being able to do what we want with our devices, from a hacker perspective the future isn't looking bright and that is our fault since we buy crap.

Most probably you can run linux on your router. See https://openwrt.org/ http://www.dd-wrt.com

"Android device" isn't a physical thing. It's an idea, a particular (but not the only) application of a set of physical things. Physical things include CPUs, RAM, PCBs, displays, etc. The whole is exactly the sum of its parts.

Let's see what's in a computer: CPU, RAM, storage, input, output, software. What's in a smartphone? CPU, RAM, storage, input, output, software. Absent manufacturer lockdown or inane laws like the DMCA saying otherwise, they are literally, physically the same things in a different package.

Finally, what does it take for a thing to run Linux? 32-bit CPU, MMU, RAM, storage, input, output. A PS3, a phone, a router, a TiVo -- they all have all those things, and all of them can run Linux. They are all computers.

An Android device most certainly is a physical thing. If not, why isn't the CPU just an idea? A particular application of a set of physical things. Physical things include silicon etc.

Is a car a physical thing?

Yes, you can call it a computer but you could also call it a heap of atoms - both statements are true, but they are pretty much both just as useless to describe what an android device really is.

Again, my clock, my fridge and my washing machine has a CPU, RAM, storage, input, output and software. By the same argument they are literally and physically the same thing in a different package - which of course is true, but also so very very wrong.

Yes, you can call it a computer but you could also call it a heap of atoms - both statements are true, but they are pretty much both just as useless to describe what an android device really is.

I disagree -- knowing something is a computer is knowing that it can be virtually infinitely repurposed. "Computer" is an entirely different kind of thing from anything else, regardless of the form it takes.

[quoted from another post] You guys are completely missing my point.

Don't mistake disagreement for obtuseness.

Also, this thread is too long already, but I wanted to mention the philosophies that seem to be driving our respective arguments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontology

Along with the other capable technical takedowns of your argument, might I just add that this is the road to technical serfdom. This is not something to be relaxed into, but to be vigorously fought.

So true. Only problem is that it isn't being fought - we consumers gladly pay for it.

So in all honestly, no matter how bad it sucks. We deserve it.

You contradict yourself a little bit. If you decide your PC is a heater, well, then it is one!

It is commercially unviable to sell it to someone third as that, but if you managed that feat, it would be a bit strange if this person then came to you: "You sold me this electric heater, but I looked into it and it is warmed by an especially hot Intel CPU. So I decided it is a PC and despite you are being in the heater-selling-business I want you to not void my warranty when I reflash the firmware so I can install Windows XP to play Solitaire in long cold winter nights."

>> I want you to not void my warranty when I reflash the firmware

That's a different issue. I support the manufacturer saying "we won't guarantee our computer-as-heater will work if you change the software."

What I don't support is "we have have made it legally/physically/cryptographically impossible for you to use the thing you bought however you want to."

If I sell you a watermelon, I'll guarantee its freshness. I'll not guarantee its fitness as a boat anchor, but if you want to try that, go right ahead.

I'm made quite the cluster out of hacked PS3s. Isn't that in the spirit of Hacker News, anyway?

>> Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer!

My long-term concern is that this will no longer be possible.

>This is done everywhere, android manufacturers constantly try to lock users in their own android shell, not to mention apple.

And people still jailbreak/root their devices for numerous reasons. If you buy something, you should be able to do what you want with it. Just because it's designed for one thing doesn't mean it can't do others.

Exception: HP Touchpad. ICS runs great on it.

I've read that the Nokia N9 also does a good job of running ICS.

Other counter examples: Boot2Gecko (runs well & generally demoed on a Samsung Galaxy S2), Ubuntu for Android, ASUS Transformers running various Linux distributions, ...

That is because WebOS was running a Linux kernel and the hardware was similar to a HTC phone(Sensation?).

Because the touchpad had a fairly open bootloader and we built a more versatile one for it based on the same code base (moboot). The bootloader in the OMAP chip also allows booting from usb and does not require the second stage be signed.

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