Ask HN: Who Went Mac –> Linux? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Who Went Mac –> Linux?

22 pointsmartinbaun50 comments

A lot of people do the switch from Something -> Mac,

but who's going the other way? and why?

I personally just bought a Macbook, worked like a charm for 3 months but then I figured out Apple hardware do not like tea, and all Apple shops just suggested me to buy a new Macbook - which seems a little crazy expensive to me.

So I went back to Linux, and fell in love with Linux again. It seems much more productive for my work with Linux, except when I update and my drivers stop working again.

View on HN

I switched about 15 years ago and had started migrating shortly after OSX came out, they kept changing stuff with each release of OSX, ceased caring about backwards compatibility and then dropped the classic comparability layer which was the last straw for me. Primary importance in an OS for me is a stable userland which stays out of my way, so I switched to slackware with ion/notion wm which turned out to be perfect for me. Thanks to who ever it was on irc that recommended slackware to me all those years ago.

I personally did about 18 months ago and it did cost me blood, sweat and tears, but in the end, I'm happy with the results (although there are still some caveats).

I wanted something repairable and open and although I'm still convinced that the Apple M-series devices are ahead of everything else, my development work does not really suffer from a little less battery life or a little less performance. The hardest problem to solve was the sheer amount of options you have when choosing linux. There are not 3 options, not 10 options, but hundreds of them. Hardware compatibility, different distributions, UI Frameworks, Window Managers, Filesystems, etc. etc. How could anyone new to this stuff find a solution for this in a week?

After tinkering around about 4 months I made a final decision to use Fedora on a used Lenovo T480s with a replaced glass touchpad (Today, I would probably go for a Ryzen Framework Notebook), and so far it is great. High resolution screen, good battery life, replaceable parts / repairable notebook and still good performance. Fedora with GNOME really feels most similar to macOS. I also considered Pop!OS and Debian.

However, my workflow still has some issues. The things I miss most are the touchpad (although with libinput-config the experience comes really close to macOS), the default Apps Suite (Mail, Calendar, Preview, Contacts) and the ability to deploy software to other Apple devices (e.g. iOS). Since I also switched to GrapheneOS on a Pixel 4a recently (long live the audio jack), it is no longer a problem, but working with PDFs and documents is really a pain. Window Management issues are not that present, but sometimes there are minor problems like the apps overlapping the screen, moving in a strange way, etc.

I still thing that the switch was worth it. Never having to deal with hardware repair issues or apples other shenanigans let me feel walking the extra mile takes half the time :-)

I used both Mac and Linux for a while. Other than cost of a Mac computer, I don't see much downside to using a Mac. You get *nix with a more standard setup and you'll spend less time tinkering.

I think the only reason I'd go Linux today is if I needed a beefier computer then what I can get out of a $2000 MacBook.

Mac OS (and most Apple software in general of late) is not open source, not all that stable, and contains ads for Apple’s products and services that can’t be disabled. Those are three reasons why I prefer Linux, all things considered. Though I do own both a Mac and a Linux machine.

I disagree that Mac OS is somehow “more standard” (whatever that means).

In addition, if you are a web developer, chances are you’re either deploying your software to Linux or to a container platform that’s native to Linux. Having your dev and prod environments match can be helpful.

Ugh, here we go.

Not all that stable: honestly an outright lie. Windows is stable. Linux is stable. Mac is stable. They’re all fine.

Ads for Apple products: they absolutely can be disabled and never come up after the first time they’re dismissed. By the way, not all Linux is non-commercial and the most popular distributions like Ubuntu and Red Hat are commercial distributions.

https://linuxiac.com/ubuntu-once-again-angered-users-by-plac...

I think the parent comment to yours was saying “more standard” in the sense that more software (especially commercial software) knows what to do with a Mac and works well with it. There are a whole bunch of commercial applications that have a Mac and Windows version but no Linux version.

macOS is also only one distribution while there are hundreds of flavors of Linux. If you’re on a Mac then someone targeting your platform knows what components you have. People who make accessories consider your existence and test their products with your platform.

Finally, most people aren’t web developers. But even if they were, I would argue that making your workstation exactly match the production server environment isn’t going to work that well even if you’re on a Linux desktop and is probably the wrong approach anyway. If I’m using an Arch Linux workstation and my application is running on Amazon EKS backed by Amazon Linux, there’s no possible way to make my container environment perfectly match the production technology.

Re: stability, we’re probably only going to be sharing personal anecdotes so I won’t argue that point with you, except to say that Mac OS is absolutely less stable for me than Linux.

And to directly refute your second point, here are two examples of Apple ads that you can’t disable: 1) if you’re close to the free limit of your iCloud storage, there’s a prominent block trying to upsell you to a paid plan in the iCloud settings. 2) if you press the “play” button on any connected pair of non-Apple headphones when nothing is currently playing, the Apple Music app opens, which, on launch, will attempt to sell you on a subscription if you don’t already have one. There’s no way to disable this ad, or even to tell the OS to open a different app or none at all, short of an open source hack that nukes Music.app entirely until your next reboot.

I never said anything against an OS being commercial.

That's why I said that all three OSes are effectively equally stable. Every user of each one is going to have some kind of anecdote about their instance of instability. We all define it in different ways.

And to be clear, I am only talking laptop/desktop workstations. I'm aware that server Linux is just about the most stable thing around, but you can't tell me with a straight face that someone on a workstation with an Nvidia graphics card is having a more stable exprience on Linux than a user on Windows with the same hardware. As another example, dist-upgrade has failed many, many Ubuntu users in the past, including myself.

iCloud storage warning: This is a message related to an entirely optional service. You only get this message if you are using iCloud storage and filling it up. The alternative is a bunch of confused users wondering why they can't save files anymore. Yes, it's an upsell, but it's exactly what a user in that situation needs to hear. It is a message that all of its competitors like Dropbox, OneDrive, Google, etc will give you because it's a rather important message.

There is no iCloud service on Mac that can't be 100% replaced by an alternative. iCloud is not required to use Mac, and an Apple ID is not required to use Mac.

You are also not correct about the Apple Music service. In the Music app, go to Music > Settings... > Show: and uncheck "Apple Music" and "iTunes Store" if you don't want to see Apple's paid services within the Music app. In that case, pressing play on your bluetooth headphones will open up Apple Music in its role as the traditional MP3/AAC Jukebox app, no ads for anything.

I agree that there should be a way to customize what happens when you press the play button on your third party headphones, but let's also be real: you're pressing the play button without playing anything. Opening the included music application is a reasonably sensible default.

I’ll just disagree with you and say hope you have a nice rest of your day!

I don't care about open source. I just want to be able to run a set of applications that I use to get things done and be productive.

All Macs are basically the same so if there is a popular app X that people are using, I know I can simply run X too.

On Linux, there are many distros and versions out there that support for apps is not as straightforward.

Put another way, I've never had to fiddle around the get an app to work on Mac. I've spent plenty of time fiddling around to get apps working on Linux.

> I don't care about open source

That’s fine, of course! I do, so I was offering that example as a disadvantage (for me) of owning a Mac.

> All Macs are basically the same so if there is a popular app X that people are using, I know I can simply run X too.

This is 100% not true, as there are often features shipped on the Mac that are not available on certain machines. For example, when Sidecar was first released (the feature that lets you extend your Mac’s display to an iPad), I saw a friend using it, but I could not. I can’t remember now, but either the Mac or the iPad was too old and it wasn’t supported. So all machines are not the same.

It’s true that there is sometimes fiddling on Linux, but I prefer my environments 100% free of ads and customized how I like them. Thanks to the distro I use, I typically only need to tweak/experiment to get something right once, and then I never have to worry about that thing again.

The only Mac selling point for me is that, if you are a startup, and your code is inside a Mac registered with iCloud, AND you have full disk encryption, nobody will get anything from it without authorization.

You can have encrypted filesystem in Linux too. Put a bios password and with encrypted filesystem, same.

what about potential repairs? Or are you not using a MacBook?

I'm using a MacBook. I've never needed a repair but if I did I would just pay Apple to repair it.

As far as I can tell, MacBooks are some of the most durable laptops out there. I don't personally have any concern about them needing more repairs than others.

Honestly in the real world, I'be never found repairability to be a huge factor for me. My employer pays for my laptop, including warranty and service contracts. If I break it, which has honestly happened literally once in 12 years, I just get it replaced.

Being a long time Mac user, I really tried to make Ubuntu my daily driver, as most of my homelab/server projects were on Debian linux. But, after "death by a thousand micro cuts", I gave up.

My current "equilibrium" that works well is Mac for my desktops and laptops, and Linux for all my other systems in my homelab (Plex server, NAS, app servers, touch controls for home automation, home surveillance systems, etc).

As long as the Linux track pad experience remains crappy, I doubt I will ever move over to Linux as my primary desktop.

This. IMHO, Mac for personal computers and Linux for anything server-related gives the best of two worlds.

Was it primarily the trackpad or was there other considerations as well?

By the way, I gave up completely on Ubuntu. Fedora is the "new Ubuntu" for me. Easy to setup and use.

I now use Windows professionally & use Debian on my older home laptop (and server), & I previously used a Mac professionally--last year. My thoughts can be summed simply, Macs are toys.

Windows is the king of business productivity; I've never seen someone with a mac do what I qualify as real business work using any applications outside of the Adobe ecosystem- If you took someone who works heavily in Microsoft & gave them a Windows machine, they'll be vastly more productive then they are in Mac OS even though Microsoft works on both platforms.

I suspect this is a core design issue more then anything as in Windows the work you do is forefront, in Mac using the Mac OS is forefront, and with Linix open source is forefront. I can tweak my Debian all day long but it won't ever run Rufus; while my Mac might run some windows applications it also won't give me the same terminal power as Debian will. Debian however won't allow me to run windows apps, will have driver issues (like my completely incompatible-still audio drivers for a laptop from 2008). Package management is and likely always will be a nightmare in Debian. However if I baby Debian and focus on particular workflows, I can set up a workflow for what I want-aka a writing environment or my golang environment but it lacks the robustness of jumping between applications seemlessly like Windows has. Linux continues to fail by not providing a superior desktop environment, however I'll still take Linux over Mac OS for any real work.

My next personal desire is to move my home computing towards purposed servers- one for writing, one for programming, etc while going either super-light laptop or portable screen & usb keyboard / mouse for maximum flexibility. That way I can setup at the multi-monitor command center if I want, or move out to the porch lightly.

I'd even go so far as to say that with the exception of gaming setups, beefier laptops / desktops isn't needed at all- just build home servers.

> I can tweak my Debian all day long but it won't ever run Rufus

Why do you need to run Rufus instead of using dd or mkisofs?

> if I baby Debian and focus on particular workflows, I can set up a workflow for what I want-aka a writing environment or my golang environment but it lacks the robustness of jumping between applications seemlessly like Windows has

This sounds like something solvable by switching to a different desktop environment or using a window manager with more configurable options

> Debian however won't allow me to run windows apps, will have driver issues (like my completely incompatible-still audio drivers for a laptop from 2008)

Perhaps this is a Debian-specific issue because of restricting non-free repos by default and other less principally stanced distros wouldn't suffer from that issue? Also many Windows apps that don't even run on Windows anymore will run perfectly fine under Linux with Wine or other compatibility layers.

In this particular case dd did not accomplish what I wanted & mkisofs is for ISO's which doesn't encapsulate all cases. Dd also has a particular drawback in that running it incorrectly can wipe your entire hard drive...oops I guess... Linux is like this everywhere- rough & poorly designed from an end user standpoint. In no world should I be using, or even able, to run a command so freely which could f up my system without not only elevated permissions but also confirmation of the very bad thing I'm about to do. That conceptsfollows into package managers with a dozen random dependencies to download or setup some utility you are likely downloading to solve some other problem. Like I said, linux suffers from a poor end user experience & that is their biggest failing...next to the absurd file system standard- thankfully some distros are moving away to something more sane but that will likely be ten plus years before it sees better adoption. Linix should have focused on the desktop environment long ago & as a community stopped looking at distributions as 'a hundred ways to do the same thing' to instead focus on a more cohesive operating system. I could go on but that's enough, they just don't have a great vision & their claims of server OS dominance mostly have to do with it being free more then anything else.

> Windows is the king of business productivity; I've never seen someone with a mac do what I qualify as real business work using any applications outside of the Adobe ecosystem

I agree but I feel that’s a very unpopular statement. There’s also counter examples. The OpenAI teams run on Macs, and it’s VERY hard to say they’re not productive. But in general, if you use excel or outlook, yah, there’s no way to replace that with a Mac. Even if, as you said, the apps are available.

As someone who oversees repairs of these things. Most computers to don't like tea. Depending on the severity the MacBooks can be repaired. But if you spilled and every thing is corroded you're looking at close to 80% of the cost of a brand new similar device. This is for most devices.

I’m not sure how relevant this is, I would think almost every laptop is this way.

Even a modular laptop like a Framework will end up with the user replacing a whole lot of components in that situation. It will be less wasteful but the cost will still be high.

I switched to Linux after 5 years of Apple and never looked back. The reason was mostly that I wanted to learn more about how OSes work and macOS was getting in the way. Also I had to manage Linux systems at work, so I wanted to get more accustomed to it.

Stayed for the stability, ethos and openess.

I currently have a Mac, but thinking of getting Linux in addition to that for some little side projects I want to do.

My MacBook serves its main purpose really well though, I use it for research and writing essentially, and I do a little bit of my business stuff on it, but nothing fancy since it’s mainly all just done through accounting software and my accountant sorts the other shit…

But I’m wanting to explore a little more of the software/programming side of stuff and experimenting with that sort of thing so I’m going to use Linux for that, and basically I just want to see what I can achieve with basically just a raspberry pi and Linux, and build on it from there. I’m very much winging it so I know I sound like an idiot.

I bought a Framework 13“ with AMD. I chose Arch, with Wayland and Sway. So far, everything works great! I can even upgrade my screen to the new 2.8k version if I wanted to.

OS X was the reason why I moved from Windows to Mac many, many years ago. macOS is the reason I moved to Linux.

My work offers me a laptop, and I chose a MacBook I have to say. I cannot yet justify spending time tinkering during work hours on unrelated problems.

And boy do I wish anyone would (could?) compete on a hardware level with Apple. Their new MacBooks are just the best on the market.

But after using Linux daily for my private life, I wish they would fix macOS. I love how easy and straight forward everything is with Linux.

Apple hardware with Linux software would be the sweetspot for me. Asahi exists but I think it still has many gaps (e.g. no external displays), I would prefer it over MacOS. Linux over Parallels is also quite usable though, and I still use a Lenovo as my second device when I'm fed up with the MacBook. It's also great software of course, Linux just feels more like a poweruser operating system to me, and KDE is in my opinion way better than the MacOS window manager.

I have been a Mac user for about 10 years now and I'm now thinking about making the switch to Linux. I don't use Apple products on my Mac and all the Apple ecosystem apps get in my way more than they help. The biggest reason for my switch is gaming. Linux is pretty much on par with Windows these days, but Mac gaming is still nonexistent and an afterthought for nearly all developers.

I switched, maybe 2018? The _only_ reason it happened was because of the shitty MacBook keyboards. There wasn’t any good way to avoid them.

So I got a used Dell 9360.

Sway and wayland.

Changed the way I use the computer. Switched back to Mac with the ARM MacBook (and working keyboard).

I use both very similarly and am comfortable on both OSes. But for now, Apple Silicon is _very_ nice.

Also, just having all the devices and suspend work. I will take that as a side benefit.

I moved Mac to Linux a few years ago. I found the trackpad and pointer precision on my X1 to be a constant irritant and went back. Someone is working on a smooth trackpad driver project so maybe it is better now. I considered going back a few months ago after some bullshit from Apple but never closed the loop.

My imac aged out of osx support (got one more OS version through installer hacking), and I couldn't get windows 8 to work right through bootcamp. Haven't reverted since.

I've used apple computers for work stuff later, but wouldn't purchase one for myself again unless I needed to.

I use mostly Mac’s in my house but I do have a few raspberry pi’s and Linux machines in the house for projects. I have an older pc that I converted to an Ubuntu desktop device but don’t use it much day to day. I just ssh into all of them and run whatever I need for automations etc

I personally went the other way around, Linux to MacOS,

Initially I hated macos, as there were no tiling window managers but later on I got accustomed to it, even though I miss using linux.

Now I just want everything that works out of the box, But I do plan onto getting myself cheap Thinkpad and might run linux on it.

You know Amethyst[1], right? If tiling is not your thing any more, there is Rectangle[2] and using the alt key while clicking on maximize.

On macOS, the alt key is often very useful, try e.g. alt+shift+volume to increase / decrease volume in smaller steps than default or when you mute notifications.

1: https://ianyh.com/amethyst/

2: https://rectangleapp.com/

I went Windows -> macOS -> Linux. I don't think there is one particular reason to go from one to the other: just personal preferences.

People love to criticize OSes, but the fact is that it is extremely interesting to understand how they work and what the differences are.

I dread using a Mac for any serious work, you lose a lot of the advantages of Linux (proper package and window management, native containers, built-in drivers for every hardware out there, excellent filesystems support, etc). And you get what exactly?

I always have my laptop sitting raised above a surface if I also have a drink on that surface. I figure it reduces the chances of a spill getting into the laptop.

Macbook Pros more resistant to fluids than non-pro hardware?

I always use Linux desktops.

However, if looking for a laptop Macbooks are just so much better built and the M series have such superior battery life it would be insane to use anything else in my opinion.

I am a linux desktop user shopping for a laptop and I disagree because of the windows laptop options with 2500+ cuda cores.

I just can't decide between a macbook air, thinkpad and msi windows machine with a nice NVIDIA card.

My Thinkpad with extended battery gets about the same battery life as my M1 MacBook Air. And the Thinkpad’s battery life can be easily doubled or tripled since the batteries are hot swappable.

I was issued a Thinkpad at my last place. They're great and built to last, but you just can't compare them to Macs.

The Thinkpad will weigh twice as much, it be about 3x the volume of a Macbook Pro (with the extended battery), the trackpad will half the size (and suck), and finally it will get hot and need to spin up the fans constantly. Oh and the screen and speakers will probably suck compared to the Macs. And you won't have mag-safe. And you'll need to carry around a massive and heavy power adapter.

I can and do compare it to Macs! :)

My Thinkpad weighs approximately 1.2 pounds more than my MacBook Air, or about a half pound more than a 14” MacBook Pro. My MacBook Air doesn’t have MagSafe, so that’s a wash, and the thinkpad uses USB-C to charge, just like the Mac. I usually use the same small 30W charger for both laptops. Screen/speakers are probably marginally worse on the thinkpad. And you’re correct that it’s thicker, though I’d doubt that it’s 3x the volume. In exchange for the above cons, I get:

* The ability to use 64GB of memory and an SSD of my choosing, purchased for reasonable market prices

* The ability to easily run any distribution of Linux that I want

* The ability to replace the battery easily when it wears out by simply buying a new one and snapping it in

* A large ecosystem of parts (aftermarket and OEM) for doing my own repairs and upgrades

I’ve considered my options and find that these tradeoffs are worth it for me a lot of the time. Though these benefits may not be important for other people, I’d encourage you not to say things like “it’d be insane to use anything else.”

I haven’t, but one reason to switch that I’ve heard is the ability to run OCI containers natively.

I use both, with an eye on going fully back to Linux.

DHH did: https://omakub.org/

Lol does he have to "brand" everything he does?

!! https://youtu.be/cQ9X3M1BXe0 !!

https://youtu.be/CPRvc2UMeMI

No love for onedeadtroll…? :-(

Reply on news.ycombinator.com