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Comment by BSOhealth | Hacker News Reader

All respect, this guy is was ~91. I’m uncomfortable driving with my mom. As a total layperson, what sort of tests does a person have to pass annually(?) to maintain a pilot’s license? Or is this dude just so O.G. that he was bound to go out living his dream?

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I’ve seen a few people mentioning medical certifications, but nobody has mentioned that 8 years ago the FAA passed a system called BasicMed which allows pilots to continue flying without getting a medical examination as long as they meet certain conditions. The plane must not exceed 6,000 lbs and must carry less than six passengers. You also can’t have failed your last medical exam. The plane he crashed had a maximum takeoff weight of 5,500 lbs and only carried two people. As long as he flew below 18,000 ft and 250 knots, he was legal (I’m not saying anything about whether he was healthy enough to fly).

In all likelihood he hadn’t had a physical in 8 years. He still would have had to have passed one in his eighties, but he probably hadn’t had an FAA exam in a while.

Source: I’m a private pilot and my dad in his 60s is as well, he flies on BasicMed because he hates going to the doc.

Edit: someone actually had mentioned BasicMed a few minutes before I started typing, but I’ll leave my comment up.

You still need to get a physical (and sign off) from your primary doc every few years under BasicMed. Just not a full FAA flight physical. If someone has not had a documented physical at all in 8 years, they're not legal to fly.

This is also a matter of public record, you can look up exactly what medical class he's operating under and when his last physical exam was on the FAA website. There no need to speculate.

Edit: I just looked it up. He had his last BasicMed physical from his primary doc last year, so he was current.

The FAA only knows when you last took the BasicMed quiz and attested that you will follow the rules. Getting a physical, storing the form signed by the doctor, and maintaining a valid drivers license are up to the individual.

When you take the BasicMed class, you also have to report when your last physical was. Your physical date is public record is transmitted to the FAA and is part of your Airman Registry record.

Yes, you could lie... but the documentation for the physical is part of your logbook and subject to audit. If I were a CFI, I would be checking that before signing off anyone's BFR. You can't really get away with this for long.

Speaking with several astronauts, including Jim Lovell, Gen Tom Stafford, and TK Mattingly, my memory of those conversations is that all Apollo-era astronauts had and continue to have complete physicals from NASA every year. If that's the case he would probably have had feedback, even if the results aren't publicly available.

My memory may be faulty ... I offer this in case someone knows better.

Here's a brief guide https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/standards

"Old guy crashes airplane" is a somewhat common occurrence that leads to obvious question if they really should have passed their medical. There's a tendency to not want to be the one to say no, especially if you've known the doctor signing the forms for decades... or if you were a fricken astronaut.

At least with an airplane you're not much risk to others....

Sarcasm doesn't translate well via text.

A very large proportion of private aviation accidents involve only the people in the aircraft.

This wasn't sarcastic at all—any driver of a car is far more dangerous than one in a plane. 9/11 is essentially meaningless in the shadow of auto deaths (to provide a direct comparison). I can't get a firm number on number of plane fatalities in the US (or auto fatalities worldwide), but 9/11 alone would amount to about only 0.04% of total vehicle fatalities in the US since 2000.

if i live to be 90, i'd wish to die quietly in my sleep like my grandpa.

not screaming in terror like his passengers.

No passengers.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/389197

Both scenarios are unlikely. Most likely it will be a long time of being tortured by doctors trying everything in the book to squeeze a few more days of money from your insurance.

Roads concentrate traffic near other people. A vehicle running off the road is much more likely to hit something than a plane falling out of the sky.

The aircraft is unfortunately known for crashing without pilot error

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_T-34_Mentor#Civilia...

And 91 year olds are unfortunately known for dying simply because they fell asleep.

I hope to be 91 myself one day - nevertheless, I remain suspicious.

>I hope to be 91 myself one day

From the Los Angeles Times, 1988 <http://articles.latimes.com/1988-12-08/news/vw-1384_1_speake...>:

>Woody Allen was once asked what he would like people to say about him 100 years from now. He said: "I would like them to say, 'He looks good for his age.'"

At a minimum, flight reviews every two years. More applicable to a 90yo is keeping a medical.

For private flying, the medical is a lot less stringent (as I understand it.... I'm not a pilot).

Eh… a third class medical still is highly sensitive to your medical history. See /r/flying for various tribulations even young people have gone through for relatively benign things.

You're probably still healthier than most of the country if you have a Third Class.

According to the FAA airman registry he was flying on BasicMed (less strict than third class, but comes with loss of certain privileges).

WILLIAM ALISON ANDERS

Airman opted-out of releasing address Medical Information: Medical Class: Third Medical Date: 10/2013 MUST HAVE AVAILABLE GLASSES FOR NEAR VISION. NOT VALID FOR ANY CLASS AFTER 10/31/2014. BasicMed Course Date: 3/22/2023 BasicMed CMEC Date: 3/22/2023 Certificates

and one can absolutely get examined by a “pilot’s doctors”

overall, the bar for skills and medical is significantly higher for flying vs driving. the other comments do a good job addressing the specifics.

it's worth keeping in mind that the sky is a big place. so is the ground when you're not driving a car. it's not a great idea to keep flying in your 90s, but it's extremely unlikely that anyone gets hurt who didn't choose to be in the plane.

Though you still leave a big fucking mess for someone to deal with.

Pilots in the US need to pass a biennial flight review with a few hours of ground… or add a rating instead. It’s possible he was operating under BasicMed so he may not have needed a recent medical.

(But would have needed to self-certify health and maintain a valid driver’s license)

As in, “yup, I’m feeling good enough to fly today” and then pass our nations highly rigorous driving tests :)

I wouldn’t be surprised if he was in very good mental+physical condition though. The crash might have nothing to do with age.

A BFR is not just ground... you have to demonstrate airborne skills as well

And even with BasicMed, your primary doctor has to certify that you are fit to fly. It's less rigorous than a full FAA flight medical by design, but it's not a rubber stamp. (You're also limited to smaller aircraft that are unlikely to do much damage on the ground.)

He absolutely was on BasicMed; his last medical was 11 years ago. His last BasicMed course was about a year ago.

It's an open secret in the aviation community that large numbers of aging boomers are medically unfit to fly but are able to maintain their medicals, for a variety of reasons.

Is there any more you can say about (1) how you know this and/or (2) whether there are reports or books that talk about this at all?

This is the main way: https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certificati...

Lots of old pilots in the general aviation community are on BasicMed.

FAA studied the results of BasicMed and found no statistically significant differences in crash rate between BasicMed and FAA/AME issued physicals.

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/data_research/resear...

I doubt there are reports. Such is the nature of open secrets. Once they're reported in an official fashion they cease to be "secret" and regulators' hands are forced.

So you have no personal connection and no knowledge of any particular reports. That doesn't make you wrong, but surely you can understand how reading this and not knowing what you know, this raises every possible red flag for unsubstantiated internet speculation.

>So you have no personal connection

What gives you this idea?

>no knowledge of any particular reports.

Correct

>every possible red flag

Hahaha, believe whatever you want to believe. What possible motivation could I have to make this up?

>What gives you this idea?

I mean I asked about this, and at best you are playing coy games by kinda-sorta implying knowledge without owning it when specifically asked.

>Hahaha, believe whatever you want to believe. What possible motivation could I have to make this up?

I can only say I'm profoundly disappointed on how this response reflects on your information literacy.

I personally don’t think that people that age should be driving even a car in public. Any time I am stuck behind a car driving slow, eg. doing 30 on a 60, it’s an old person. It’s dangerous, nearly seen so many accidents with people overtaking.

But then again, if it’s someone’s own plane and there’s little risk to anyone but themself, then maybe fire in. But wow should the insurance be through the roof.

I try to be sympathetic to older drivers. I can't imagine what it's like to be 70+, have no immediate family or friends, but still be a half an hour from the closest grocery store.

Until we properly take care of our elders, I don't know what else they can do.

Meals On Wheels, et alia are saviours, imho.

Same thing for children. One of the hardest things to watch as a parent is kids who are utterly trapped by urban hell infrastructure. Society doesn't treat people without cars well at all.

Another reason self driving cars will be one of the greatest inventions in our lifetimes!

A bandaid to a society being built on car reliance. Even as a fit and healthy person with a car, getting anywhere in that kind of city is such a chore.

My wife's grandfather drove like a bat out of hell. He wasn't safe either.

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