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Dear OS writers:

Internet access is not always guaranteed or reliable. Please do not assume that the cloud is a viable solution for every user.

I ran into this on my phone awhile back. I knew I would be out of service for some time but had some PDFs I needed to reference. So I downloaded them to "files". Que surprise when I later go to look up a value and there's a little cloud with a down arrow button next to the PDF in the files app, which of course fails because I'm nowhere near any internet access. Even more fun: turning off the cloud integration in files just causes the files to disappear, even if you are currently connected. It's allergic to local storage.

This is the number one thing that annoys me about so many apps, especially apps with clear use-cases for offline use like listening to music, reading, and learning apps. I don't understand how so many app writers have never gone for a run through a canyon or flown on an airplane. I specifically pay money to SoundCloud for instance just for the "feature" to cache the music locally and somehow it regularly gets stuck clearly from lack of internet. It's probably some metric collection or some other spyware to make sure all the bean counters get their money at the huge expense to usability. Pimsleurs language learning app, and many book reading apps all suffer and all I want to do is not be bored to tears on flights that don't have internet.

They just want live data on your activities and update without sync and stuff however expensive that is even for them, easier to be lazy too

Also every <35 years old person is a js/web dev, so that’s what they do on cloud

> I don't understand how so many app writers have never gone for a run through a canyon or flown on an airplane.

In the UK, every time I got on a train, I'd experience that. And it was worse than not having internet; you had internet, but with extreme packet loss and instability, meaning that every app out there would simply stall, even if it already had the data to do whatever it is I wanted it to do, because it was waiting on some background request to complete. And because I had internet, the request didn't just fail, but it also wouldn't complete in any reasonable amount of time.

Very frustrating.

Audible recently started doing this, to the point where I had to revoke its permissions to use cellular data just to get it to work right.

> learning apps.

So fun to spring for the paid duolingo only to realize you can only download the next lesson up, not like the entire course.

The lessons are like 5m long wtf am I supposed to do with that? I just want to spend my idle time on the plane or camping disconnected from distractions so I can learn, but app developers have made that effectively impossible

And this is why I don't pay for, or even use duolingo even though I'm actively learning a language

If this is the place to complain about broken patterns in Microsoft software, I wonder if anyone can fix this:

1. Create new office document (Word/PowerPoint/etc) and hit save.

2. No, the default location in OneDrive isn’t right so you click the down arrow to see more.

3. No, none of the other recent locations in the (short) list are right either, so you click “More locations”

4. Now you have to click Browse to see an actual Save As dialog that finally lets you navigate through folders. Even then the actual folders are right down at the bottom of the left hand “tree” pane, below a bunch of virtual folders, below OneDrive (aside: if you navigate “up” from here you get to “Desktop”, but it’s not the same “Desktop” that appears lower down in the list; that one is inside your OneDrive), below Music, Videos (you get no hint as to where these actually are), finally near the bottom there is This PC and Network which you can navigate sanely through. Oh, and right at the bottom there is “Microsoft PowerPoint”, as a save location. You can click on it and try to save a document in there, wherever “Microsoft PowerPoint” is. Just kidding, you are stopped by a dialog box telling you this isn’t a valid location.

JFC. No wonder people prefer the “everything is an app icon” approach. Windows is diabolical for managing files.

1,000% agree.

Saving files in Office has turned into a nightmare.

I don't understand what Microsoft is thinking with this behavior.

I'm fine with that being the default flow. But it can't even be turned off.

I imagine this design is better for non power users.

They no longer forget where they saved their files.

But for power users, this is terrible.

Yeah, my machine connects over WiFi on an external USB 3 adapter because I'm too lazy to finish my Ethernet project. The adapter requires drivers, which are handily included on the device itself as a mass storage device. But there's seemingly no way to get those drivers installed in the captive environment, I even tried using the "launch cmd" key shortcut and manually running the executable, but Windows wouldn't have it. And there's no option to install drivers so you can proceed with Microsoft Account sign in...

Literally my only option was to use the local account bypass. How long before they fully remove that, though, remains to be seen.

Seriously, it drives me absolutely out of my mind. I tell everybody who listen, "Remember your users aren't software engineers who are always connected over fast reliable pipes, and program accordingly" but it's a hard problem. No PM ever wants to hear that you're spending time optimizing for no/low internet scenarios.

I've gotten burned by that "isn't really downloaded" thing a few times before too, to the point where I don't trust apps to download anymore. I just adb push files from my laptop to my phone before I go. Can't always do that though, but I try to.

Yes, Onedrive started out as a pretty useful tool but has turned into a deceptive trojan that tries to force whatever growth metric MSFT managers are currently chasing through a combination of dark patterns (like hiding true file paths from view) and also simply refusing to operate in obviously useful ways which many users want and expect (like not having a built-in way to back up only specific sub-folders on different drives (forcing paying users to trick it by using junctions)).

There used to be no option to uninstall it - now there is.

You will still get it reinstalled during a major OS update, but at least it can easily be removed. Before it was a chore to clean up.

I would speculate there is even some way to prevent it from reinstalling during those major updates. That seems like the kind of capability they would build in because a huge Windows customer complained (i.e. realistically, the major check against dark patterns in Windows).

Not quite what you are describing, but you can prevent any specific executable from ever running by configuring a "debugger" for it in Image File Execution options (HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Image File Execution Options). You add a key with the executable name and then add a "debugger" value, then point that debugger at C:\Windows\system32\systray.exe. Every time the named executable tries to launch, Windows will try to "debug" it with systray, which immediately exits so the program never actually runs. After uninstalling OneDrive this can be set to prevent OneDriveSetup.exe from ever running for example.

You can also define software restriction policies to do similar things.

It id what SRP's are for (but yes, I would not put it past them to disable anything targeting OneDrive).

> I would speculate there is even some way to prevent it from reinstalling during those major updates.

The one positive about Windows is their need to cater to their enterprise IT fleet management base. So, as long as you have a Pro version of Windows, there is usually a way to lock down most things like this via Computer Policy settings. It's just not easy to discover nor time-efficient if you're managing a personal "fleet" of three PCs.

Hang around kids and even though they can be pretty good at using a computer, they have no clue how the thing actually works. They don't know what a file is anymore. Everything is a shiny little icon in a shiny little magic folder.

Not trying to make this sound like a value judgment, more an observation. But it makes you wonder, what do we lose by excessive abstraction.

Yeah my 82 year old mother knows more about files than my kids do.

This isn't excessive abstraction - this is just different abstraction. Files and folders are a human invention, and there's no law of nature forcing us to continue using them. It's like complaining about people forgetting how to use MS-DOS commands, when Windows (until PowerShell) was built on GUIs through and through and MS-DOS commands were only still there for compatibility. You don't have to learn MS-DOS command to copy files, you learn to use Explorer to copy files (which to a small extent is like using the MS-DOS command).

Or like complaining people forgot how to use teletypes. We didn't have to keep using teletypes, and we didn't keep using them. Our Linux terminals are still modeled after teletypes, but not in a way that has anything to do with using a real teletype. You don't learn teletypes, you learn terminals (which to a medium extent are like teletypes).

It isn't like when people don't learn to add numbers or how Quicksort works or assembly code. Those are still fundamental truths that help people understand things. It's more like not learning to write Roman numerals, or not learning ALGOL 60. Nothing is really lost except the ability to read old things. You don't learn Roman numerals, you learn western Arabic numerals, and they're better, not worse. You don't learn ALGOL 60, you learn C11, and some people would argue whether it's better, but it's not worse.

storing things "in apps" still makes a file on a filesystem, but it's less reliable and the user doesn't know where it is

Storing things "in files" still writes a CHS-addressed sector on a disk, but it's less reliable and the user doesn't know where it is.

Files are currently used to implement apps, but that can be seen as a transitional measure, like an OS that supports both files and raw disk access. A fully app-based OS without files, though not existing currently, would be possible.

Another idea the industry discarded was to make the disk a big SQL database, again without files.

Nah. The files and folders still exist on all of these systems. So hiding them away is actually more abstraction, not “different” abstraction.

UX prognosticators have been preaching for decades that anything that computer users find confusing should simply be hidden. Not made more clear, or easier to use, but just papered over so users can no longer identify a specific thing to complain about. It’s just like the weirdos who try to get rid of the address bar on web browsers every few years, but the filesystem haters have been a lot more successful, and computers are more confusing as a result. You don’t solve confusion by hiding it behind a thin layer of paint. All the same problems still exist, but there’s no longer a way for experts to even try to help. There are so many better ways to simplify computing than pretending it’s magic.

> It’s just like the weirdos who try to get rid of the address bar on web browsers every few years, but the filesystem haters have been a lot more successful, and computers are more confusing as a result.

They figure that the less users know about how their device/software works the more dependent they are on developers who can then act as gatekeepers of what the user can and can't do even when the system is capable of much more. They don't want users doing things differently, or disabling things, or seeing what's going on under the hood. Keeping users ignorant, controlled, and dependent gives them a very secure feeling.

Feels like a conspiracy to force power users to experience software the way noob users experience computers in general.

No, those shiny app icons are still using folders and files, that part is just being hidden from users to where they have less understanding of how things actually work.

Phones aren't secretly using Roman numerals or tiny embedded abacuses though. If they were for whatever reason, there would be plenty of value in learning those systems.

I recently tried to fully rid myself of OneDrive and it took me over 48 hours to accomplish. The only working method I found involved fully enabling OneDrive, signing in, and waiting for a full sync. Only then was I able to tell it to stop syncing and finally remap Documents, Downloads, Pictures, etc.

The fact that I needed to log in, wait 24 hours for my account to unlock due to inactivity (!!!), and enable sync in order to disable it was enough for me to finally decide that Windows 10 will be my last Microsoft product. It may be a small annoyance, but to me it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

And I can almost guarentee you it will magically all turn itself back on/reinstall itself eventually after the OS force updates/reboots itself in the not too distant future.

It's already re-created the OneDrive folder, but it hasn't moved any of my libraries back yet. Knock on wood.

That is truly insidious, but FWIW, you don't need to abandon Windows entirely because of this. There are ways of creating a custom Windows installation disk that removes OneDrive, along with other bloatware, spyware, and pretty much anything else you don't like. Look into tools such as Tiny11 Builder, MSMG Toolkit, NTLite, etc. This is a decent guide[1] for setting all of this up.

The process is quite tedious and takes a few hours, but in the end you end up with a personalized version of Windows, without any of the garbage. You still need to be vigilant of Windows Update undoing some of this, but you can also disable it altogether and manually cherry pick the updates you want to install.

It's insane that Microsoft is building such a user hostile OS that forces users to resort to this, but if you absolutely must use it, the experience after doing the above is not so bad. I've been running a custom install of Windows 11 for about a year now without any issues.

[1]: https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/create-custom-windows-11...

Maybe this tool is a bit more comprehensive. After configuring a stripped down image, Windows can be installed in what is almost like a headless mode in literally 5 minutes with no user intervention:

https://www.ntlite.com/

Yes, NTLite is good, but AFAIR, it doesn't allow deep customization of some things. The guide I linked to mentions it as the last step.

Thanks, I'll take a look into this! I'm still probably going to move to a linux distro for my desktop, but I'm always down to try breaking things on another system.

They are the house of dark patterns.

After a certain point anyone paying attention can see it's not accidental. Oops sorry! No. Their goal is your technological enslavement. Mis-features like that don't accidentally just always end up being evil and oops sorry when there is a real backlash. They wanted to see if they could get away with it, like they do.

I abandoned MS products in 1998 for good. Win98se pushed me over the edge.

Wim98SE was actually good though! Well, it was way way better than win98. Win2k and 7 (the last windows OS I ever had for personal use) were good too. The writing was on the wall back in the 98 days for sure though. MS decided that your computer was theirs.

I unfortunately had to use Windows last year, and the whole mix up between local folders and OneDrive folders meant that the only way to not go insane was to avoid using those folders altogether, create a C:\MyStuff folder and store everything there.

I like this video of Jonathan Blow ranting about the file explorer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le6dvr95Z2Q

If you think this is bad, there was a period last year that my documents folder would suddenly rename itself to "Documents" but in a different language. This would religiously change every few days. Other people have reported it as well.

I have disposed of my last PC now and have nothing to do with the infernal things, or onedrive, or any of that crap ever again!

You have to reinstall Windows and set up a local account instead of a Microsoft account. Everyone should install Windows with a local account.

For Windows 11: https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-witho...

I wonder how long that will work... https://www.howtogeek.com/windows-11-just-killed-a-local-acc...

It’s unlikely that they would completely block offline installations.

Yes, my company just went through a merger and for quite a while we had two OneDrives showing up and it was difficult to tell where the default folders were in addition to being a huge mess any time a file dialog opened. I've actually reverted to creating folders in C:\ to store files so I know where they are.

I just got a new PC and went through the same thing! Incredibly frustrating that in something Godot I have to manually traverse through folders to get to where I want to actually save a file (like.. Documents)

This is especially obnoxious for Desktop and Remote Desktop Connection.

The former because my desktop is... where I want things just a certain way for THIS computer, not across the cloud. And because it's a PITA to undo and set it the correct way.

The latter because of course I use Remote Desktop on multiple computers, but it keeps saving a "default" file in the same place across computers, and throwing errors left and right because they conflict. So stupid.

Add to these complaints that many folders are actually logical overlapping folders that pull from multiple places. I haven’t been able to bring myself to use Windows for years now, and I was a Windows sysadmin for over a decade! It’s basically impossible for someone like me who needs to feel in control of their computing environment to ever feel comfortable with.

Interesting, our experiences are different here. I suspect it's because I installed Windows 11 (23H2) using a local account using the OOBE bypass (not because I particularly hate the Microsoft account thing, but because this machine uses an external WiFi adapter and requires drivers in order to work, so I could not have done it even if I wanted to). The drivers are actually included on the device, but there's not a clear way to accomplish a driver installation while in the captive OOBE, even given the ability to launch a command line.

I did later connect my Microsoft account. In my installation the OneDrive folder is empty and the entries in Explorer map to the normal places (C:\Users\X\Pictures etc). If I open one of the default folders, it does show a "Start backup" entry in the address bar that is referring to OneDrive, though. If I open the OneDrive folder, it asks me to sign in (entering password) and set it up-- which is funny, because the Windows user is signed in using a Microsoft account already- so seems like they haven't connected those dots properly yet. In theory this might be their way of implementing a security check for uploading all your files, but if so it's an awkward way to do it.

> Additionally, some programs still seem to want to use the OneDrive folder by default, like I think Office programs still do their best to use them.

If I remember correctly, there is an API that programs can use to locate common folder locations for users (such as Documents, Pictures, etc). My guess is that your account still points to the C:\Users\X\OneDrive\Pictures instead of C:\Users\X\Pictures. If you could adjust those directly (maybe in the registry?), I would imagine that it will work correctly in these programs, especially since I doubt those programs would break on my setup, where there is no OneDrive subfolders (though I don't use Office so I can't check). And in case you wonder if there really are no subfolders in OneDrive since I can't open it in Explorer without signing into it- it shows nothing when viewed via PowerShell.

Or better yet, make the OneDrive integration a public, documented API so we can plug in our own cloud storage and get all the same benefits (syncing settings, files, game saves, etc. but with the added benefit of choice). I'd love to get native integration with ownCloud / NextCloud and even other online competitors.

And for that matter, make Apple do the same for iCloud; I'd love to keep all my iPhone stuff in my own self hosted "cloud" and get 1st party integration.

The proper way of doing it is to use the API calls that have existed for decades to get the paths of well-known folders. It is because they are known to move and in fact having a roaming profile on a server location dates to the mid 90s with WinNT.

If you're hard coding paths you're doing it wrong.

> The proper way of doing it is to use the API calls that have existed for decades

A user doesn't want to do this though.

I tried casually using a windows 11 machine for something the other day (I think I was fixing game folders for my girlfriend), using just explorer, and it was pretty obscenely bad how overly confusing it had gotten. I say this, and I fairly routinely debug old build systems with complex nesting file structures, I know my way around a file system.

This wasn't a case of "oh you're just a power user", this was a case of the system had broken, and the simple advice of "backing up your files" and "copy your files over here" wasn't working.

Telling everyone they need to use API calls is just ridiculous, the filesystem is just broken for the average user.

you just have to use dopus as a file explorer replacement and just use dropbox (with cryptomator of course...) to yield (in most respects) best in class file management and sync

Always set Windows up with a local account to avoid this nonsense. Used to be relatively straightforward in Windows 10, but MS made it a lot harder to dodge in 11.

It is infuriating when I open the file explorer and it takes many seconds to populate the side bar. This wasn't the case wit windows 10. Everyting in one drive really makes things take a long time. OneDrive is great, but I want a OneDrive folder where things are sync'd, not transparently transforming the file system into OneDrive.

The gateway to a monthly consumer subscription. Therefore important to Microsoft.

Apple also uses dark patterns to try and get a monthly income from customers. Apple has upsells and nag nag nag advertisements for iCloud.

The irony with Microsoft is that I would consider paying a monthly fee for a modern version of Windows 2000 without extra features. No adverts, no telemetry, no OneDrive, no cloud signin, no store, no games installed as part of the OS, no MS junkware, no bullshit. Aside: why is there no "Windows for developers" - even Balmer knew "developers developers developers" was worthwhile but Microsoft has deleted that from its DNA: even though Apple's competition is a mixed bag.

One drive is awful. It keeps crashing and forgetting where it was. I have 3 copies now. I have to waste time to sort it out. And it messes up the dates. It is disgustingly f our workplace enforces this.