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Comment by dsco | Hacker News Reader

Why do people always have to preface Elon praise with some initial criticism. The man has objectively created some incredible businesses.

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Because they want to be seen as a moderate rather than an uncritical fan.

This happens for many online debates where extreme positions are common.

Because he is a complex human being with a very visible dark side and any praise of his achievements will make his terrible personality traits stain you like a soggy barf bag on an overnight flight

But you know... they're all complex. Even you are a complex human being... maybe not so visible as Elon Musk... but... so what?

You know why people really do it? It has nothing to do with Elon Musk, but rather is a response to our own fears for our own social standing. We fear that if we say something good about a person that our social group has, in defiance of your complex human point, decided is "a bad guy" that we'll just as cavalierly be excluded or derided from that group.

So when you acknowledge that complexity or something good that this "good for nothing" person has done, you have to start off with with virtual signaling: "oh this guy is terrible, but... ", (meaning "please see that I'm still one of you").

I find the whole act kinda craven, perhaps even moreso than a social group that demands it.

The hive mind has decided he’s bad, so you have to make sure everyone knows you hate him too otherwise you risk being ostracized as well

Nah, I dislike him regardless of what the hive mind thinks.

It's very much a "religion of society". There is dogma, sins, shunning, confession, penance, blasphemy, heretics, etc. Just because it doesn't have a creation myth doesn't make it not religious.

A more gratuitous interpretation is that someone who does this is making an attempt to stave off the expected vapid replies that occur whenever you mention polarizing topics or people.

That might be what you would do but I think the man is a shit and I only mention his achievements out of duty to try to be fair. If I wasn't interested in being fair I'd just say I don't care what he has done - he has been paid well for whatever it is and doesn't need any admiration from anyone.

This is so silly. Reading comments like these, you’d think everyone on HN is a perfect human, without flaws and liked by everyone. I’m glad someone like Elon doesn’t spend his time reading stuff like this and instead spends most of his time kicking ass. In the long run, his results will continue to speak for him.

I mean, yes and no. In principle I agree with you but Musk very much does also spend his time reading stuff like this and getting into internet slap fights. Last time I checked he was tweeting 29.2 times a day, or roughly once every thirty minutes of wake time.

Half the problem with Elon is that he does spend some of his time reading stuff like this and shitposting on the website formerly known as Twitter about it, instead of going to work or sitting on a beach reading something more useful.

Upon reflection this is also a problem with me, but I don't own SpaceX or Tesla, so fewer people are going to call me out on it.

That is the tiniest problem imaginable. If that's half the problem then is it even worth the gossip on HN?

Elon's propensity to say dumb shit and take a side in the culture war is not a tiny problem. It is devaluing the brand of every company he publicly contributes to, when the brand is the most valuable thing about many of them.

This is self-referential. It's a big problem because it's a big problem?

It's a big problem because it is devaluing the brand of his companies, which it is doing because investors and consumers aren't psychopathically logical actors and will refuse to buy from companies associated with men who breach their deeply held beliefs, which is why casually choosing a side is a dumb idea[0]. If you think this is self-referential, can you explain why?

[0] I will accept that choosing a side is fine if it aligns with your goals, but Elon's most ambitious goal appears to be going to Mars, and voicing his opinions about politics on Xwixxer appears to be hampering his efforts to achieve that goal

> The man has objectively created some incredible businesses

Even this, you need to put asterisks on "created" because he spends so much time building out lies about the companies he runs/ran because the creation myth is so important. The amount of unforced errors behind his tenure at Paypal, a lot of it around trying to be taken as the guy who "made Paypal"... it's just very silly!

And I think ultimately in a place like HN, where there are supposedly a lot of "builder" types, when you hear every Musk company say "yeah the way we stay productive is to keep Musk out of things...." everyone's natural bias against bullshitters kick in!

I think it's hard to discount Tesla really pushing forward EVs. I think it's extremely easy to discount all of his other stuff if you're cynical (yes I include SpaceX in there, though it's easy for me because I think manned spaceflight, let alone "going to Mars", is extremely silly). But this stuff isn't really fungible...

> keep Musk out of things

Never heard that from people at Tesla or SpaceX.

No doubt, but Tesla would not be where it is today without Musk's deceptive marketing, stock manipulation, disregard for labor laws, and just generally acting like he's above the law. One can admire the products he's had a hand in building without admiring the man himself. And the moment he got involved in politics it was inevitable that people would distance themselves from him.

Because he’s an easy person to dislike. And he’s spent a lot of his career taking credit for other people’s work.

He also has a section of people that are cult-like in their defense of him which adds fuel to the fire. “You’re jealous” or “you’re just angry he’s rich” or some other such nonsense seems to come out of the woodwork for anyone who has anything even slightly negative to say about him.

He's objectively ruined some incredible businesses as well

Like what?

Tesla and Twitter come to mind.

Boring Company was always bad so I guess that doesn't count.

He created Tesla.

Twitter is doing fine.

Neither of those statements are true

Tesla was a 6 month old company consisting of an office and a desk and a borrowed electric kit car, with no design, no money, no plan, no contracts.

Then Musk came in with several million dollars and got it created in any real sense of the word.

As for Twitter, what's your evidence that it isn't doing well? I use it regularly, and it works fine.

Because he’s the worlds oldest 14 year old boy

I do it very deliberately and I think it is good practice. It ads nuance and balance to Internet discussions which often tend to be very polarised with people shouting at each other. In my view Musk is a very flawed person but that doesn't justify spreading misinformation about SpaceX's very real and important accomplishments. Crazed evangelism over SpaceX also doesn't negate Musk's troubling history of public statements and actions.

> Musk's troubling history of public statements

He says what he thinks. Unlike most public figures who filter everything through their PR person.

I’m not sure saying everything you think is necessarily a virtue.

I didn't say it was a virtue. Nobody thinks virtuous thoughts all the time. But I do find Musk more engaging because the pablum coming through a PR firm is boring.

> The man has objectively created some incredible businesses.

... and since then called a rescue diver a pedo, got into quite the mess regarding his partnerships and offspring [1], burned dozens of billions of dollars in Twitter, seems to be doing the public customer service for a bunch of literal neo-Nazis on Twitter [2], and is apparently on a truckload of drugs on the regular [3].

It takes years to build up trust, but it's very easy to completely erode it in a few weeks.

> Why do people always have to preface Elon praise with some initial criticism.

Because otherwise, people might accuse one of being a Musk shill, and there's unfortunately quite a bunch of these, completely ignoring any of the countless issues with Musk.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Relationships_and_ch...

[2] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2022/12/19/c...

[3] https://www.wsj.com/business/elon-musk-illegal-drugs-e826a9e...

> apparently on a truckload of drugs on the regular

He does remarkably well for someone on a truckload of drugs on the regular. Perhaps other CEOs should copy that? ;)

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