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Comment by Svip | Hacker News Reader

> For example, letting Grima leave edoras because 'enough blood has been spilled' is really cool, but dubious and questionable.

My read has always been that Théoden was still unsure about what to do with Grima after what has been revealed. He is clearly angry at him, but it is also difficult for him to let him go, after he had has been his closest council for so long. When they meet Saruman and Grima at Isengard, Théoden even tries to plead with Grima again. And it doesn't make sense that Théoden is trying to lure Grima, because if he is trying to be cunning, he would well know that Grima would never bother, instead, it reads as Théoden still holding out hope.

So yes, it is questionable to send Grima away. And Tolkien isn't exactly subtle about it.

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I would rather take it at face value, as a perhaps surprising but nevertheless fitting display of magnanimity and mercy.

Theoden has been restored to his right mind and character. The whole thrust of the his character plot (in the books) is that he ends his reign as noble as any of his forbears; freed from the influence of the lies of Saruman, he becomes an exemplary king. And one kingly virtue that Tolkien presents again and again is that of magnanimity to defeated foes: Bilbo doesn't kill Gollum (which Gandalf explicitly praises), the Rohirrim don't kill the Dunlendings, Gandalf doesn't kill Saruman.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment."

This magnanimity is also something prized in Earth-medieval kingship, too. Many a revolt against a king ended with the king pardoning the vassals that rose up -- only a king very secure in his throne could depose or even execute rebellious vassals. Of course, it's important that it be a common member of the nobility for this to work consistently. Against commoners, brutality was far less politically costly. And heretics (read: Kathars), who risk the Wrath of God coming over the whole community, are even less worthy of protection.

> When they meet Saruman and Grima at Isengard, Théoden even tries to plead with Grima again.

I've only read the book twice and it was a long time ago I last read it but... The whole Saruman/Grima/Theoden thing is way different in the book. In the book by the time Saruman arrives at Saruman's tower, Saruman had escaped (I think by tricking one of the ent, smooth talking it).

Saruman then goes to attack the shire. It's Grima who kills Saruman, but in the Shire.

I don't think Theoden tries to plead with Grima? That's a Peter Jackson / LoTR-the-movie invention no!?

I don't remember enough of the book but the whole "Theoden pleads with Grima / Saruman slaps Grima / Grima stabs Saruman in front of Theoden" is definitely not happening like that in the book.

It's maybe even the biggest difference between the book and the movie (it kinda changes the whole timeline).

I am mistaken. Théoden does not plead with Grima in the book. But Théoden is less eager to throw out Grima, when the truth has been revealed at Edoras compared to the movie. I must have confused the scene in the films for happening in the book, even though I had just read the book, though notably, Théoden continues to refer to him as "Grima" while everyone else calls him "Wormtongue". Regardless, I was talking about the events at Orthanc in the third book, in the second volume, chapter The Voice of Saruman, not the events much later in the Shire.

Edit: It's not the scene in the movie I confused it with, it's that Théoden does remark that he hopes Grima can come back after the incident, but he does not in fact plead directly with Grima.

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