America's commute to work is getting longer and longer
wsj.com
wsj.com
High paid, "white collar" work is shifting to a remote/hybrid structure, or are paid enough that they can move to reduce commute. However, lower paid, service-oriented jobs require physical presence in the workplace. The increasing affordability gap for housing means these people have to live further and further away from their workplace.
The effect you described is most certainly real, there's just other pressures to consider.
So we stay, I do hybrid/flex and only come in about half the time.
My spouse and I make about 300-350k combined. Our mortgage is $1350/month. We're not moving.
I don't think the quoted sentence is true anymore. Maybe a few years ago, and before covid, not anymore. People aren't moving.
I use this phrase a lot of times: "money buys options" (not the securities kind)
Our society had a huge opportunity to make a huge dent in vehicle usage too without waiting for public transit to catch up. We messed it up because commercial RE.
I’m living in rural NY thanks to remote work. The US is spread wide and I don’t think emulating Europe will work in the case of US.
The thing I'll miss more than the short commute time, I think, was just having stuff within walking distance. I used to have a grocery store, my doctor, my pharmacy, and multiple restaurants just a short walk away from my apartment. But now I'll be firmly in the suburbs, with the nearest grocery store about 2.3 miles away.
I can't see the article so maybe this is explained already.
The problem is that the area is attractive to everyone. In theory a better approach would be to start new cities to increase the number of inner suburbs. Instead we see cities expand, increasing demand for the limited supply of "good" areas.
What makes inner suburbs of many larger cities attractive is that they provide access to major city amenities without the downsides of living in an urban core.
How can others not see it? I see a bunch of people, even on HN, pushing for lower emissions while rejecting remote work for whatever personal reason. I also see others wanting instead to force everybody into ultra high density living to avoid driving, while remote work cuts down on the biggest source of driving needs.
You do not need to go to "ultra high" density, à la Manhattan or Hong Kong.
Once you get to densities of Paris, Stockholm, Amsterdam, Munich, Brussels—in the 50 people per hectare (20 per acre) range—there are diminishing returns:
* https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/environment...
I would not call any of those "ultra high" (though perhaps others would?).
I accept high density cities, but ultra high is misanthropic.
This doesn’t necessarily apply to other countries with better land use patterns, of course.
The emissions of cars for the US is much higher than most people expect at 1.7 billion tons, while air conditioning is about 117 million tons. A/C also peak matches solar, which makes the emissions for it easier to cut.
Heat is harder to get numbers on, but I also think most oversized suburban houses are in the sunbelt these days, plus I don't think a home office swings it too much from the baseline heating to keep the pipes from freezing.
If I could’ve found a decent apartment in the city for the same price as my house, I likely would’ve opted for the apartment instead because being within walking distance of essentials and things to do is very compelling. Unfortunately there’s not much in US cities that can be had for the same price, and what little can isn’t pleasant to spend extended amounts of time in as one does with remote work.
This doesn’t have to be a problem. In Tokyo for instance there’s plenty of suitable apartments for a decent price, especially if you’re ok with downtown being a 20m train ride away. We don’t build our cities like that, though.
My emissions 100% went up with RW.
I moved to Wyoming from New York, bought a roomy house. bought a car for the first time and fly constantly. The quality of life is great. And I still drop into the office every few months. But it’s no environmental panacea.
https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/02/think-youre-in-your-car-mor...
Going off property prices, it’s not negligible. (And going off labour prices, RW is clearly anti-agglomerational [1].)
[1] https://econ.vt.edu/content/dam/econ_vt_edu/seminars/fall-20...
Even if full time rm is carbon negative, hybrid can be positive. Myself and many I know went from 10 min Daily commutes to 60+ min commutes 2-3 times a week.
What?
Then I got a remote job and realized I could save a fortune by moving to a rural house an hour away.
But when I _did_ need to go to Dublin, I was sometimes driving instead of riding a bike (though sometimes I took the train, but I was very careful to make this an option and my neighbours would usually drive to go to Dublin)
To be clear: I’m not faulting people for this. But it’s an intuitive consequence of people moving their working space into their living space: having both means needing more room, which frequently means moving somewhere rural or suburban and driving more.
In my experience there are a greater degree of remote workers among the older part of the work force.
For a minority of the workforce. The majority of jobs, especially the most critical ones (infrastructure), cannot be done remotely.
1: https://www.dpeaflcio.org/factsheets/the-professional-and-te...
I did see "professional", which has all sorts of categories, including "manager" and all sorts of sciences, etc. "Manager" can be someone managing a cleanup crew, a job site, scientists can be on boats, or in the woods, architects at construction sites, on and on.
A Walmart has several managers, some of which have no office. A Burger King has a few managers.
How does a janitor do remote work? A teacher? Restaurant workers? Hospital workers?
> However, healthcare workers and others in similar professions often don’t have the ability to work remotely. In fact, Healthcare workers in New York have the worst commute times of any profession at 52 minutes on average.
* https://jeremybney.medium.com/long-commutes-show-structural-...
If certain places are popular to live in, and the prices of residences gets priced up by high-income individuals, low- and mid-income people—who are often the (so-called) 'support workers' in those communities—are pushed out and often have long commutes to their jobs.
Not everything can be done over Zoom or an SSH session.
One thing about these workers is there is a limit on density, and in many cases a strong correlation with the number of people who live nearby. There are only so many janitors you need, even for a large office building. Same with health care workers. The number you need is a function of the number of beds the hospital has, its size, and how busy it is - which has a large correlation with how many people live around it. Same with cooks. How many cooks you need in an area is limited by restaurants and kitchen space and how many people are around.
Not so with workers who could be remote. You can pack them in by the thousands and tens of thousands into cubicles in downtown skyscrapers. They in tern drive demand for cooks who have to come work downtown in an area they could not afford.
If you make the people that could be remote, remote you reduce this pressure. No longer are you packing tens of thousands of people in a very small, expensive part of town. This reduces the number of cooks you need in the very dense expensive part of town. This reduces the cooks who have to commute to a part of town they could never afford to live in.
In addition, with the reduced number of potentially remote workers who are paying extra to cut down their commute, you reduce the price pressure of housing.
Remote work reduces density, lowers price pressure, and increases the correlation of work to where people actually live.
So it benefits even the jobs that can’t be remote.
Agreed. However, if everyone who is capable to work remote will decide to do so, it would free up lane capacity for those who aren't able to.
This would be akin to getting a free infrastructure upgrade for those who truly need it.
Less traffic reduce stress, but you still have distance to deal.
And that assumes you can drive, and you're not too poor or have some other factor which restricts your ability to own/operate a car.
> But when one train recently stopped for a sick passenger, her commute expanded to a mind-boggling three hours and 15 minutes. She was late. To make up the lost time, she stayed longer with her patient instead of picking up her granddaughter from school. She had to enlist a neighbor to do that — for $35.
* https://archive.ph/1a6y3 / https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/nyregion/health-care-work...
Edit: It would exert downward pressure on land costs. Obviously that can still be overcome by other factors.
That does not necessarily follow: some folks may prefer to live in an urban area (only) because they work in said urban area, and so want shorter commutes, but I'm sure plenty live in urban areas because (e.g.) like the amenities.
As a sysadmin I can easily do remote work, but would still live in an urban centre.
As per Jane Jacobs: people do not live in cities, they live in neighbourhoods. I think most folks who live in urban centres do so because they like the lifestyle first, and a shorter commute may be just a nice bonus. There are also lots of folks who 'reverse commute': live in the city and work in the suburbs.
Perhaps a simple example is through remote work meaning fewer commuters, and so less traffic, less crowded trains, etc.
But also consider that schools and hospitals need to be near centers of population - if people are moving out of cities into smaller towns, then, over time, schools in those towns will need to grow, and those in the cities shrink, thus (one would hope) allowing teachers and hospital workers more affordable accomodation, close to their work too.
But, on the other hand, roles for janitors and restaurant workers may be reduced (if people are WFH and not needing office cleaning, and going out for lunch).
And thus wages should increase for "support workers", currently the lifestyles of those living in such high desireable areas are subsidised by those taking terrible commutes.
Janitors and restaurant workers are good examples, however hospital workers can be hybrid; remote classrooms have been a real thing since the 21st century.
It’s better for some employees.
Some people get more done and have more fun working in an office with other people.
> Some people get more done and have more fun working in an office with other people.
It is not the job of employees to provide extroverts the ability to "have more fun".
It's not more cruel than introverts forcing extroverts into not socializing.
> It is not the job of employees to provide extroverts the ability to "have more fun".
No, but if a company wants to retain employees who want to have fun at work they'll make decisions that lead to that.
Having fun at work is no more a right than not having fun at work is a right.
Well that's the point: Society has made it acceptible for extroverts to force introverts into socialising, but the other way round is somehow inacceptible.
> Having fun at work is no more a right than not having fun at work is a right.
Having or not having fun is no right in itself anyway. Companies that force introverts into situations they are uncomfortable with are eventually going to lose them. The extrovert's fun stops where it is actively harming the introverts. Undermining introverts' feelings by making them feel uncomfortable in order to have fun is harassment.
There's nothing inherently wrong with this.
Just like there's nothing wrong with extroverts quitting a job that doesn't provide them with what they want and makes them feel uncomfortable.
The business may be less successful after the introverts quit or they may be more successful after the introverts quit. It's the company's risk/decision.
> The extrovert's fun stops where it is actively harming the introverts
Not liking something and being harmed by it are 2 different things that are sometimes related. That's a very important distinction to make.
Neither the introvert nor the extrovert need to love everything about their job. They may hate some aspects of it! They may choose to stick it out or quit. Both are fine.
I'm not sure that is always the case. When everybody is in the office, you save on shared resources such as lighting, printing and heating. Also, a certain percentage of remote workers will take the car during the day anyway, to buy lunch or groceries.
I know prices may not be a perfect corollary to pollution but people driving that much to work are pretty likely to spend more money fueling their vehicles than they are on electric + gas for their homes.
Combined with the closing of traditional organizing grounds - in my current employer's case, the company pub and rugby team due to non-parity/inclusivity -, you see a drastic disconnect between white collars+blue collars due to lack of contact during and after work.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/america-s-commute-to...
Text-only:
https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/BB1nzqQ1
How do we measure commutes? Is my "commute" 9 steps or 2 hours?
They recently added a switchable toll lane to the Interstate where I live, into the city in the morning and out in the evening. My house was valued 50% higher that year(pre COVID).
At least medicine has given us breathtaking miracles to go along with insane cost growth. Housing has just been naked generational wealth transfer.