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Comment by refurb | Hacker News Reader

> You don't get to be Musk level without reaching your hands deep into the pockets of other people and taking it for yourself.

There was no "reaching into others pocket". It's a luxury car, not a fire extinguisher being sold to a guy on fire.

People reached into their own pocket and handed him cash. Voluntarily. For something they wanted.

Then Elon sold off pieces of his company to people who reached into their pockets and handed him cash for it. Voluntarily. Because they wanted it.

It's one of the least coercise set of transactions I can possibly think of.

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Musk has made off with generational wealth just off of government subsidies alone. Government subsidies for businesses are just welfare for the rich.

And it created homeless people in San Francisco.

NIMBYism is largely responsible

No, tech is largely responsible

No.

Yes.

More likely things like fentanyl are to blame for homelessness. It’s extremely addictive and cheap to make

There was homelessness in SF in 2000, before fentanyl was available on the street.

Surely homelessness also predates Tesla, what is the actual point you are trying to make?

That there was homelessness before fentanyl. I believe that was quite clear in my previous comment.

Considering Tesla doesn’t have offices in SF you’re going to have to explain that one.

Can you do it without absolving others, like the city, of their responsibility to make sure housing gets built?

Sure. Plenty of its employees live in SF.

Wait, so your logic is - we create more jobs and pay workers high wages creates housing demand, and that’s bad?

So new jobs and high pay are bad?

That sounds incredibly anti-worker.

> So new jobs and high pay are bad?

They're bad for the people who don't have them, like teachers, restaurant workers, and custodial staff...people who are also "workers".

Don't have what? Teacher, restaurant workers and custodial staff have jobs.

But regardless, your argument is that new, higher paying jobs are bad because other people make less?

Do you hold a general belief that all progress is "bad" because deprecates existing things? If so, how far does this go?

Would you consider a new cancer drug "bad" because all those people who received an older drug didn't get to experience such good results?

This seems like an "anti-progress" mindset.

> Don't have what?

new jobs and high pay

> your argument is that new, higher paying jobs are bad because other people make less

My argument is that new, higher paying jobs are bad for the people who don't have them. Is your argument that they're somehow good for the people who don't have them?

> Do you hold a general belief that all progress is "bad"

No. My belief is that progress is not "good" for the people who don't share in the benefits of that progress. Are you going to argue otherwise?

> Would you consider a new cancer drug "bad" because all those people who received an older drug didn't get to experience such good results?

No, but if a person suffers because they can't afford a new cancer drug and regards that as "bad", I'm not going to tell them they're wrong to make that judgement. Are you?

> Is your argument that they're somehow good for the people who don't have them?

Yes

> No. My belief is that progress is not "good" for the people who don't share in the benefits of that progress. Are you going to argue otherwise?

But people do share in them, even if they themselves don't get a new job and higher pay. The most obvious one is taxes - these new jobs create new taxes that go to the government to be spent on society.

Beyond that, isn't it better if your fellow citizen who was unemployed has a job now? Or if they switched from a lower paying job to a higher one? That's a societal benefit.

> No, but if a person suffers because they can't afford a new cancer drug and regards that as "bad", I'm not going to tell them they're wrong to make that judgement. Are you?

You missed my scenario. If a new drug comes out, is it bad that someone benefits when the people who didn't get the new drug (because it wasn't available) don't benefit?

>> Is your argument that they're somehow good for the people who don't have them?

> Yes

This ought to be good. Let's hear it.

> these new jobs create new taxes that go to the government to be spent on society

Wealthy people pay a lower tax rate than non-wealthy people do. That means the tax system is a net transfer of wealth from the less wealthy to the more wealthy. Try again.

> Beyond that, isn't it better if your fellow citizen who was unemployed has a job now?

Not if my fellow citizen outbids me on an apartment, no, it isn't.

> You missed my scenario

No, I presented a different scenario. Sorry for not playing along

> Wealthy people pay a lower tax rate than non-wealthy people do. That means the tax system is a net transfer of wealth from the less wealthy to the more wealthy. Try again.

Please provide a source.

Youre also ignoring the fact that even with a lower rate (which you haven’t proven), they may still pay more overall which benefits society.

> Not if my fellow citizen outbids me on an apartment, no, it isn't.

So you’re prefer if your fellow citizen was left unemployed, rather than you being outbid on an apartment? It sounds like you’d prefer to keep poor people down rather than have to spend more time finding housing. Isn’t that selfish?

> No, I presented a different scenario. Sorry for not playing along

Why would you refuse to give your thoughts?

> Please provide a source.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/briefing-room/2021/09/23/new-...

> Youre also ignoring the fact that even with a lower rate (which you haven’t proven), they may still pay more overall which benefits society.

Yes. I'm ignoring it because it's not relevant. Think about it. Suppose for the sake of argument 400 people took 99% of the output of the nation (~$23 trillion in 2023), and since we're supposing, let's be generous to your argument and suppose those 400 pay a higher tax rate of say 40%. That's ~$9 trillion in taxes or roughly double what the IRS actually collected. Sounds pretty good, right! Except...that leaves the remaining 300 million with a per capita income of less than $1000 per year. Would you prefer this supposed situation in which the richest 400 pay even more in total taxes (and tax rate) than they actually do in reality?

> So you’re prefer if your fellow citizen was left unemployed, rather than you being outbid on an apartment? It sounds like you’d prefer to keep poor people down rather than have to spend more time finding housing. Isn’t that selfish?

Wrongo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

"left unemployed" is not the only alternative. There are others. "Employed but with an income the same as mine" is one. Given the choice between my fellow citizens taking home so much more than I do such that I can't afford to live in my city, and my fellow citizens taking home the same as I do such that I can afford to live in my city, I would choose the latter. Would you choose the former?

> Why would you refuse to give your thoughts?

Why did you stop beating your wife? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

I haven't refused to give my thoughts on your scenario. I chose not to elaborate on your scenario. I did "give my thoughts", however.

  No, but if a person suffers because they can't afford a new cancer drug and regards that as "bad", I'm not going to tell them they're wrong to make that judgement. Are you?

Do you that first word "No" there? That's me giving my thoughts on the "yes/no" question you'd asked. The rest is me asking for your thoughts on a different scenario, which as far as I'm aware you've not given. Would you say you "refuse" to give your thoughts on this question?

> https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/briefing-room/2021/09/23/new-...

That's not a source. That's a cherry picked, politically motivated source about 400 billionaires? The average person getting a job at Tesla and competing for your apartment isn't one of them?

Want to try again?

> Except...that leaves the remaining 300 million with a per capita income of less than $1000 per year.

But that's not what's happening. What's happening is someone is getting a job paying a couple hundred thousand at Telsa. And as a result they pay more in taxes.

> "left unemployed" is not the only alternative.

It is in the example I gave. You stated that instead of "losing an apartment" you'd prefer that person never got a job at Tesla.

> Why did you stop beating your wife? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

You refused to answer (you literally stated you won't answer), so I asked why. That's not a loaded question.

>> That's not a source. That's a cherry picked, politically motivated source about 400 billionaires? The average person getting a job at Tesla and competing for your apartment isn't one of them?

> Want to try again? Not particularly, no. You asked for a source for my claim that the wealthy paid a lower rate in taxes, and I gave you one.

> But that's not what's happening.

I know. It's called a "thought experiment." It's designed to explore the implications of reasoning. This thought experiment illustrates that even if the wealthy pay a higher tax rate and/or higher overall taxes, the benefits to society of those taxes do not compensate for the drawbacks of there being rich people in that society.

> It is in the example I gave. You stated that instead of "losing an apartment" you'd prefer that person never got a job at Tesla.

Well, no I didn't state that, but even if I did, "never getting a job at Tesla" does not logically imply "left unemployed." There are other employers besides Tesla.

> You refused to answer (you literally stated you won't answer), so I asked why. That's not a loaded question.

No, I literally said, "No, I presented a different scenario. Sorry for not playing along." That's not a refusal. That's simply me choosing not to engage with your scenario at that time. Who knows! Maybe I'll engage with it later (not likely).

> Can you do it without absolving others, like the city, of their responsibility to make sure housing gets built?

Why would I do that? I never said that tech is the only cause of homelessness. Outcomes can result from multiple causal factors, after all.

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