Some Americans have stopped tipping. Should you do the same?
dallasnews.com
dallasnews.com
This is a way to avoid tipping if and only if you're comfortable manually selecting "no tip". It doesn't matter if you're ordering online or at the counter, you will be prompted for a tip these days when ordering takeout, often with some obscene percentage preselected that you have to opt out of.
As multiple people noted in the article, this tendency has done more to exhaust people of tipping than anything else. A tip jar is nonconfrontational and just gives an easy way to give extra if you want to. But these terminals are turning tipping into something that is actively stressful for a lot of people.
The only bright side I see is that by completely exhausting everyone they might be responsible for ending the practice everywhere and forcing restaurants to pay a wage.
How do you know how much to tip if there's nothing to evaluate yet?
Neither tipping or bribing is healthy because both are built on a social contract that can be voided by one party without much consequence—the only difference is which party is in a position to void the contract after reaping the benefits.
Oh wait, that's you in this case!
> “Tipping should be based on exceptional service,” she says. “It’s not an entitlement.”
For sit-down restaurants, tipping is a cultural convention that was adopted long ago, and has been baked into pricing, wages, and sometimes even taxes.
Someone might make an argument that it'd be better to have a different cultural convention.
But simply ignoring the actual cultural convention would be a big deal, adversely affecting the livelihoods of many low-income people.
Simply ignoring the convention, as some do, seems ruthless.
Couldn't one change the culture without freeloading off of where it's baked in?
For example, publicize your preferred convention, and then give your business to restaurants that decide to satisfy the demand for that convention.
If people don't flock to those restaurants, then maybe that wasn't a viable cultural change.
Or maybe the objection wasn't impassioned philosophical position on the optimal economic model, but rather that they simply wanted to pay less, and blaming a questionable custom was a convenient loophole.
They could just pay a living wage like most other countries where tipping is not a thing.
The standard in business is that more volume brings about discounts. If you buy a larger order of parts from a supplier, your unit price is less than if you buy a small number.
The only way surcharges for groups make sense is that groups can sometimes tie up the place due to staying longer, but that's a stretch. Groups also have a way of finishing up and getting the hell out, not much slower than someone dining alone.
Every group lunch I remember, there have always been drinks, all round. Almost everyone has at least one glass of beer, save for the odd teetotalers and designated drivers.
I will typically not order a beer if dining alone, or just with family.
You have a big group, with everyone ordering food and most of them drinks (easy money) yet want an extra tax on top.
You have 3 parties with non-aligned goals.
Staff will optimize for earnings, so they actually prefer tips. Many oppose a minimum livable wage (keyword being "minimum", which often ends up being much lower than tipped wages).
Customers will optimize for cost while having the peace of mind that workers are getting paid a living wage, so they prefer restaurant owners pay their staff a minimum livable wage, but not any higher than that so they can enjoy meals at a reasonable cost.
Restaurant owners are trying to optimize their cost, so they want to minimize cost of operations, which means paying their workers as little as legally required, and have the customer cover the rest by tipping (which is discretionary and governed by norms).
The equilibrium -- at least in America -- is found in a reasonable level of tipping.
For example -
"The restaurant industry in America is unique, and survey data proves that both tipped workers and the public prefer it as well. Restaurant workers often look at ourselves as commission-based sales people..." (https://www.restaurantworkersofamerica.org/faq)
"The switch to a no-tip, 25%-surcharge model at world-famous Zuni Cafe has done wonders for the wages of kitchen staff. But very few of the veteran servers remain who worked at the restaurant when the tips were taken away, and those who work there now are still complaining." (https://sfist.com/2022/07/28/90-of-zuni-servers-have-left-th...)
What's becoming a problem is that many businesses that weren't tip-related are suddenly requesting tips for service. Those are the ones that people should not tip. There's no need to expand the number of services that need to be tipped.
Who gets to decide?
I think the only absurd thing is making it a percentage of the cost. Why do I tip someone more for doing the same job because my meal/service is more expensive?
If you've not seen how the back of house functions you may have some misconceptions about the sources of labor involved in your meal.
This is a generalization that isn’t universally true. I’ve known so many restaurants where the servers keep their tips. The whole point of this thread was that the means of application are inconsistent and arbitrary.
Least expensive item is a salad at $7. $0.70 tip. Most expensive is $22. $2.20 tip. This is a baffling thing to care about.
I want to know how it works! You’ve told me I’m ignorant and that’s fine, I’m too invested in my current career to get a job in a kitchen right now, and you seem to know, so go ahead and educate.
Who gets my tip and how is it divided? I’ve always assumed it goes entirely to the waitstaff (pooled or not). It seems like maybe it should be distributed to other people who make the service happen. Does the dishwasher get a cut? What about the line cooks?
For example, when I go to a restaurant serving steaks, the job isn't significantly different from one steak to another, but the cost can be significantly different.
Preparing a ribeye vs. a t-bone vs. a sirloin isn't all that different, but you can expect the prices on each to vary wildly, mostly due to the cost of materials. Rationally, neither the wait staff nor the chef really deserve more of a tip for one vs. the other, but the convention demands it.
Well not if you factor in not having to pay a tip.
> What's becoming a problem is that many businesses that weren't tip-related are suddenly requesting tips for service. Those are the ones that people should not tip.
The problem is that the line between where tipping is required is incredibly difficult for people to understand. It used to be that if they asked you to enter a tip that meant that the employee wasn't getting a living wage unless you gave something. Now you can't use that, and all the "simple" ways that people say you can know are just confusing to most people. The result is that people have to either make a random decision or consistently tip everywhere or nowhere, and everywhere isn't financially possible.
This tipping madness should stop and is IMHO US specific - I don't see that the rest of the world sees tipping as something "by default", and in many countries tipping is even disrespectful.
The customer is already getting higher prices and pressured to tip a percentage regardless of the price
If the stylist owns the salon, no tip. If the stylist is renting a chair there, then tip according to your motivations.
The code allows for a lower minimum wage when tips are involved.
Getting rid of this complication in the tax code would make owning restaurants harder, but fix other societal issues.
Can’t say it’s be an easy decision or trade off to make - a lot of restaurants wouldn’t be able to stay in business and those who like eating out would have a lot less and more expensive choices.
You have to tip. It's not really a request. That said, a custom gifting a few dollars to those working brutal menial jobs isn't such a tragedy. What we need is a mechanism where servers can be tipped directly bypassing management. Could be just a QR code badge linked to stripe fast checkout.
I imagine a waiter living off Costco hotdogs and soda standing eight hours a day holding a jug of ice water and a game face with the heat of the kitchen to his back wondering if he can make both rent and the car payments. Watching groups of businessmen and beautiful women eat $300 meals leaving half of the food uneaten. It's emasculating, cruel. There needs to be something like the tipping custom. That kind if experience can build real resentment
Go ahead and tip 0 if the consequences are acceptable to you.
In any tipping situation, the price is the base price, not the final price.
You should know, such a mechanism was invented thousands of years ago...
During early Covid, when I'd get grocery delivery from a company that happened to be known for often treating employees badly, I'd tip much more than the default. Because they deserved it and more. But a side benefit was the amusement of imagining the CEO getting pissed off that a worker was getting paid more than the minimum that the company had calculated it could get away with.
(Well, it turns out the company was stealing tips, so maybe the CEO had the last laugh, but I tried.)
If you think a company is mistreating their employees, don't use that company. At all. The only tip you should be giving employees is to find a better job.
No CEO is getting bent because somebody else is paying their employees' wages. If anything, you've enabled them to continue treating workers poorly for longer.
The side benefit of tipping well was amusement from imagining the CEO (of a savagely metrics-driven, stack-ranking, generally jerky) company being so miserably ruthless that they're demanding reports on tipping, and getting angry when there's employees/contractors who they can't squeeze any harder.
Not that they're actually getting angry.
What an employer pays an employee is just enough to keep them doing the job.
It doesn't matter if the money comes from tips or wage it's all the same.
Which means the company will be the one who benefits from a tip every time it's money they don't have to pay the employee no matter what.
Is it me or does Starbucks coffee taste burnt? I prefer 711 on taste every time. They need to fix that
I totally hear you on the taste, it comes off as smoky to me. The blond roast espresso is more mild on that.
That delivery fee is supposed to pay the delivery drivers. It's not my responsibility to help some company figure out their payroll.
Likewise I do not tip Uber and the like because I'm already paying them to drive me someplace.
The only place I might actually trip would be a sit-down restaurant with tableside service. And I tip not based on the value of what I ordered, but based on how much time the server spent attending to my needs.
If you took my order, and then delivered it, and that's about it for my interaction, don't expect me to tip a lot - you didn't do a lot of work. Am I demanding and needed all kinds of whatever? I'll tip more.
If you're concerned about their ethics in paying their employees why would you continue to use the service? Aside from the ethics why would you use a service where quality is guaranteed to be minimal?
> but based on how much time the server spent attending to my needs.
Putting it in a vehicle and driving it to you at home does not count?
> you didn't do a lot of work
Have you ever delivered food for a living?
You make it seem like it's quantum physics. Anyone can carry a plate to a table, it's one of the jobs with the fewest requirements for the position.
When you are taking a dish to a table, it is a good time to reflect on the decisions you have made in your life that have put you in that position. Perhaps finishing high school wasn't such a bad idea after all.
Do you know what ServSafe certification is?
> it is a good time to reflect on the decisions you have made in your life that have put you in that position.
In my entire life I've never looked down on labor. If I had no other choices, I'd be happy to wait tables, and I wouldn't think anyone has the right to treat me poorly because they think they're better than me.
> Perhaps finishing high school wasn't such a bad idea after all.
Perhaps not being a detached anti social snob is too hard for the average HN reader.
Is it slave labor or something? Why shouldn't I use the service?
> where quality is guaranteed to be minimal?
You think if I don't pay a tip I'll have minimal quality? I strongly disagree. Companies should just pay regular wages instead of random wages based on the generosity of strangers. If people stopped tipping, companies would have a hard time recruiting, they would raise wages to get enough employees and we would stop this farce.
> Putting it in a vehicle and driving it to you at home does not count?
No, that's the basics of the job. Attending to my needs would be something above that. To bring it back to the server: Taking my order and bringing the food is the basics. If you want a tip there needs to be something above and beyond that.
Are you planning on giving a tip to DMV agent who renews your drivers license? What about the checkout clerk? Do you tip your mailman?
This who business of tipping because food is involved is utterly pathetic. There's nothing actually different about the a food delivery driver vs a mailman.
> Have you ever delivered food for a living?
I have not, but as I said: bringing the food to the table if the basic job. Doing a lot of work means mental work, not physical. i.e. you paid special attention and anticipated needs, i.e. you are more than just acting as a glorified robot.
Put another way: If someone could automate your job with a computer to take orders, and a conveyor belt to deliver them, that's not tip-worthy.
If your job is performed by tons of other people who do not get a tip, you're also not getting a tip. (i.e. food delivery vs mailman)
A tip is for something extra. I had a mechanic who managed a very difficult tire patch repair for me - saved me on buying a new tire. I gave him a tip because he did something beyond the norm - normally they would not repair that tire.
Like I’ll say “what would be an amount that will solve a problem you’re worried about?”
Usually it’s just “oh whatever you think” so I just do whatever I feel in that case and move on.
Sometimes it’s zero, and sometimes its $200 to the Uber driver with pictures of his sick daughter all over his car.
If the point is to compensate the person because they are wage slave then I feel obligated to directly compensate the employee bypassing the structure they are in
Tip pools are more complicated and I generally ask how the pool is split before deciding
It’s such a scam but most people who are stuck in it don’t have many options
Oh man, that's what I'm doing next. Are there any sick-child-as-a-service providers or am I going to have to go source my own? Can I just use stock photos?
Would you tip more if there was a screen in the back seat playing a slideshow of the sick child with a Sarah McLachlan song in the background? How about a live chat function where you can talk to it before you tip? Maybe an achievement system for repeat customers? Fill out your punch card and you get to inject the cyclophosphamide!
What if we had the state reclassify our cabs as foster homes and put a foster kid in every front passenger seat? Do they have to be terminally ill or can we just shave them and feed them a diet of lead paint chips?
Sorry this startup idea got away from me. I'm calling it Munchausen.ai
Good luck
I had hoped the absurdism of a cyclophosphemide punch card or converting a taxi cab to foster home would have given it away
If I got into an Uber like this, I would get off at the next corner and report it to the company. I want to travel in a car and not be psychologically blackmailed, I find it despicable.
So as a function of life, if you don’t have people who will freely drive you places, and you don’t live in a place with public transport, and you can’t move, then you have no options on choices
Maybe back in 2012 there were people driving rideshare ina way that improved their lives but that number is so low at this point that getting into a rideshare is deterministically getting into someone’s car that doesn’t want to be there
I'm getting annoyed by these apps that don't give 15% as an option. They put 22% as the first option, which is insane. And it's no fault to the waiter, it's the default setting that was configured by the store. I had to calculate roughly what 15% was quickly and accept the payment. At that point, maybe I should have just put 0% but then I'd be an asshole, right?
Usual disclaimer of this being a thought exercise
Until the culture changes and merchants start building service costs into their prices and paying service personnel living wages, tip them. Tip them generously. 20% is table stakes for restaurant service; for things like hairstyling you want to tip around 50%.