Infections Correlate with Entrepreneurship | Hacker News Reader

Infections Correlate with Entrepreneurship

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54 pointspixiemaster39 comments

Another exemplary paper of why you need to beware of reversed causality. Since infection with T. Gondii is much more likely if you are less cautious with food and animals, it is very much possible that the causal link is actually reversed. It's also worth pointing out that current research has cast major doubt on the old idea that toxoplasmosis causes any psychological effects in humans [1]. While it might sound cool that there could be a parasite out there that changes your behaviour like in a zombie movie and papers like these will get easy media attention, take this stuff with a massive grain of salt.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4757034/

Questions about causality are raised though, right? Page 4:

Mechanistically, the observed linkages between T. gondii infection and entrepreneurship among students, professionals, and nations have several potential interpretations. Given the correlational nature of the study, observed patterns may not be causal; for example, higher risk-takers could be more likely to be both entrepreneurial and exposed to T. gondii (e.g. by consuming raw/undercooked meat), thereby driving the correlation. Although causality cannot be inferred, the […]

> current research has cast major doubt on the old idea that toxoplasmosis causes any psychological effects in humans

Asking non-jokingly, how do we explain “cat ladies”? Women who hoard cats and seem to be crazy.

They’re not typically “hamster ladies” or “dog men”.

Sure with billions of people you’ll find examples of anything.

But “cat ladies” seems to be an obvious symptom of something.

There are 100% dog men but rather than "more dogs" they tend to go for "more dog".

There are also definitely "rat people", but not Splinter IYKWIM.

Niche media hype.

There are other such media hypes which you can explain like that without involving a neurologically active parasite. For example the belief that whites are being systematically replaced by blacks/hispanics/muslims/jews/... Or the belief that there is a single supreme being in the sky, watching everything we do, having killed his son for humanities sins. There are no rational reasons to believe any of this, still, many people do, with lots of media helping them reinforce those thoughts in quite effective bubbles.

So-called niche media hype is the reason gp thinks cat women are the product of toxoplasmosis. A general explanation for cat women themselves (along with all your other examples) is culture.

It might be that the cats find the crazy lady.

Might be like some kind of filter effect.

Along the lines of Cat lady has 1000 cats arrive at her place over a period of years.

990 of those cats are like "Hell No!" and GTFO. But 10 are a matching kind of crazy and stick around.

> Asking non-jokingly, how do we explain “cat ladies”?

It's a book/holywood cliché

I know several bird women. The problem is that instead of becoming extroverted because of an infection, they develop lung problems. It's much less romantic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_fancier%27s_lung

Cat people in general are noticably different from non cat people... Not really sure how but it's definitely a thing

But are they different because of the infection, or they are different and hence the infection. That is the question

I’m a cat person. In fact I have a cat, but just the one.

I’m not sure how that makes me generally different though? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m genuinely curious.

I am and have always been an introvert, but I’m friends with introverted dog people too. Other than that, I’m not sure what (for lack of a better term) stereotypical traits I would have that correlate with being a cat person?

Genuinely interested in observations.

Before everyone shouts that the correlation may be spurious, I would like to say that some drugs (e.g. Parkinson's disease drugs), can have significant psychological side-effects, like increasing impulsivity and reducing risk aversion for those who experience them. People leave their spouses, buy expensive cars, get tattoos, and yes, leave their jobs to pursue entrepreneurship.

My point is that it's not far fetch to link infection to impulse, cause infection may change the chemical functioning of the brain.

Neuroinflammation is directly behavior-modifying as I understand. Papers like this one are suuuuper interesting: “Aggression, Social Stress, and the Immune System in Humans and Animal Models” from 2017 by Takahashi, Flanigan, McEwen and Russo.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2018.0005... / DOI: https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffnbeh.2018.00056

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33186046 ("The Degradation Drug"; 75 comments)

("A medication prescribed for Parkinson’s and other diseases can transform a patient’s personality, unleashing heroic bouts of creativity or a torrent of shocking, even criminal")

SBF did it intentionally (so he says).

> Sam Bankman-Fried Confirmed He Wears an Emsam Patch. [...] The Emsam patch contains something called Selegiline, which was originally used primarily to treat Parkinson's.

https://slate.com/technology/2022/12/sam-bankman-fried-ftx-e...

That doesn't sound smart at all. There are many safer ways of acting on the dopamine pathway(s) than directly going for L-dopa (which, unlike a lot of other substances, isn't rate limited by subsequent bioprocesses).

SBF is kinda known for doing things that don’t sound smart at all

MAO-B and A inhibitors (they inhibit the enzymes that break down dopamine, serotonin and other amines) are not too uncommon to be used as nootropics in the nootropic communities, and selegiline has probably some more nootropic effects. It is also used for ADHD. While definitely indication of risky behaviour (disrupting body's homeostatic and allostatic mechanisms is quite risky, people can die when taking this together with foods high in tyrosine) I doubt he used it specifically to increase impulsivity.

Forget Soylent! My new mycorhizal Cat Crap Caffeine Blast is what you need to crush it in SV!

Thiel will love it!

The other day there was an article about how toxoplasma gondii infection correlates with leadership in wolves, too.

https://www.sciencealert.com/something-strange-happens-to-wo...

Terrible title. This is specifically talking about toxoplasmosis, a parasitic infection known to promote risky behavior.

Entrepreneurs need to have a tolerance for risk that salaried employees often lack.

Oooooh, so THAT'S why Sequoia asked me if I owned any cats!

>Disciplines such as business and economics often rely on the assumption of rationality when explaining complex human behaviours.

Perhaps even more often, large-scale financial situations rely on the proven ability of a market to remain irrational longer than the most common participants can remain solvent.

No assumption about that.

What even are we? Who are you?

Once you can modify behavior, is there any doubt about free will.

There is nothing to us. No core, no self.

and

It can be done with AI too.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40459543

The idea that behavior can be altered by drugs or surgery is nothing new. You can also die, or kill, and put an end to all behavior forever.

The core is a step beyond that.

"The core is a step beyond that."

Where? If you've found it you should write a paper.

I think the point here is, a virus, and in other studies even 'magnets' can do it. You can modify behavior, such that the person does not realize they are modified. They believe they made these decisions themselves, when in reality they were being tweaked externally.

Out of curiosity, what percentage of Hacker News readers own cats?

interesting.

On the one hand, the correlation could be suprious (I've heard the correlation between eating chocolate and winning Nobel Prizes as an example of this), on the other hand, there have been studies linking Toxoplasmosis with schizophrenia and traffic accidents.

Is it trying to prove that a paper doesn't need to be any good to get published, or did I miss something? Genuinely interested: I skimmed through it and it seems like a hoax to me.

> Is it trying to prove that a paper doesn't need to be any good to get published, or did I miss something?

That was already proven a couple of years ago.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievance_studies_affair

This should be its own submission, I hadn't heard of it and its interesting.

Done: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40524008

Correlation implies reverse causation. Entrepreneurship is infectious! Hide your children or they 'll become like those silicon valley kids. At least until a vaccine is found

Maybe busy people are more likely to own cats.

Maybe cats are attracted to busy owners

Hmmm that paper seems to have a suspiciously low number of citations though

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