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Comment by 9dev | Hacker News Reader

As a EU citizen, this makes me so god-darn angry. The parliament tries it again, and again, relentlessly, against every single legal or technical advisor. And there is nothing I can do about it, not even voting. The EU claims to be democratic, but actual legislation is passed without much democratic input. No matter how the vote turns out, there will be enough support left for laws like this. Always. And if this iteration won’t pass, they will modify and retry. Until they eventually, but inevitably, succeed. So it’s only a matter of time.

And I know this, we all do, and yet am fundamentally impotent about it. It’s infuriating.

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> The EU claims to be democratic, but actual legislation is passed without much democratic input.

Note that this will still require a parliamentary vote before it passes, even when the governments endorse it. Considering the elections for EU parliament are next week, I'd definitely recommend voting on a party against this. EU Parliament has already voted out previous versions of this exact law.

Besides that there are also your national elections, as any nation could veto a law like this.

That’s what I mean. I’m voting on a party opposed to this, but it won’t change anything. The way the parliament is set up, the way most people tend to vote for centrist parties, and the amount of supporters from different fractions will ensure there will always be at least some parliamentarians in support of all kinds of surveillance, and will continue to press forward on these topics. It only takes a single period of public opinion swinging into a safety minded direction, and these forces win permanently.

Maybe that is the kick in the guts needed to really move to a decentralized chat application that literally cannot be compelled to provide data since it doesn't have any.

EU would just force the client to do client-side scanning. But then again, if the client is open-source: fork, compile, repeat.

Down the line obviously, is the death of general purpose computing where you canNOT do that, or canNOT installed non-signed applications (e.g. iOS but for all computers).

Article 50 is right there, still. If the EU is untenable in the long run because of objections like this, either it will have to make itself more accountable to citizens, or the governments which are accountable to them can be pressed into invoking Article 50.

(Article 50 is the the mechanism for a member state to leave the EU, as in what the UK invoked)

Politicians wont care (or would actually support this kind of laws), so they wont trigger article 50. Unless citizens start to complain loud enough, maybe.

Except this is not the parliament, this is the commission (the representative of the governments of each country)

The parliament is usually against such measures. (And the EUCJ, etc as well). The same parliament that has an upcoming election in 3 days.

Afraid of the rising alternative parties, the current power structures seek to forever freeze their power in time by passing authoritarian laws. Sadly, they only way to end this it by massively voting alternative parties no matter the cost.

That comment raises a different kind of fear in me… are you talking about the „alternative“ right-wing, populist parties? Voting fascists is definitely not the answer either.

Some people reading this might get the impression that the EU Parliament is not a popularly- and directly-elected legislative body with votes every 5 years...

That aside, what kind of democratic input would you like? Swiss style?

Do you write to your MEP~s?

It's a particularly amusing statement when the elections for EU Parliament are next week, from June 6th til 9th.

Lots of places let you vote. The impact that has on actual political work varies.

Well, shall we talk about the role of the commission? Or the court of justice? Or the whole apparatus of offices, sub-offices, representatives, and Initiatives? It’s all so complex that pretty much nobody you meet could correctly outline the way European legislation works. There have been discussions among scholars for more than 50 years whether the EU is a sufficiently legitimate democracy.

I’m definitely pro EU; after all, international collaboration is the only thing protecting us from the USA and China, but there’s lots of room for improvement here.

I note you didn't answer any of my questions

But I understand your anger, and largely agree with you.

The EU Parliament is directly elected but legislative initiative is the sole prerogative of the European Commission. They can’t pass a law without Parliament’s assent but they can keep on trying and they’re the driving force behind the legislative agenda.

Well, for one, the EU had only lobbyists as consultants until some of the associations that defend freedom made so much noise that the EU could nothing but invite them, too. Point is, they should have been invited in the first place and not after massive outcries.

EU parliament are a bunch of dicks.

> And there is nothing I can do about it, not even voting.

You’ll be able to vote next week. 6-9 June 2024.

https://elections.europa.eu/

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