After Legalizing Raw Milk, Legislators Fall Ill from Drinking Raw Milk (2016) | Hacker News Reader

After Legalizing Raw Milk, Legislators Fall Ill from Drinking Raw Milk (2016)

eater.com

26 pointsripjaygn40 comments

Headline doesn't even match their own story. It was a matter of speculation, with alternate plausible explanations.

    In a strange coincidence — or not — many of them became ill hours and days later.
    ...
    While many are attributing the bouts of illness to consuming raw milk, other lawmakers say there has been a stomach bug going around which may have caused the sickness.

Anyway this story seems off-topic for HN.

I recently found a milk vending machine on a farm a bit away from the city here (Germany.) You just have to bring your own bottle, 1 euro/liter and it's local. I'd rather give the farmer the full price, rather than dealing with the grocery store margins.

But I'm always a bit skeptical due to infections. Didnt some famous natural scientist die from it in the 60s or so?

There is a sign on the machine telling you to bring the milk to a boil before consumption, mainly just because it is mandated by law. Most people do not seem to boil it off.

4th big anti raw-milk article this week on HN. Is there an agenda? How about we let people do what they want?

Here's the agenda: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/high-h5n1-infl...

High H5N1 influenza levels found in mice given raw milk from infected dairy cows

The agenda: "Please don't turn your anti-government protest into the next pandemic. Thanks.

Real question is why you would want to legalize this in the first place. On one hand, you might fall sick, on the other hand you get…what? Some good vibes that the milk is raw?

I think it's stupid, but some of my behaviors seem stupid to others: I worship an invisible deity. Some people get carbon pushed into their skin. Other people change their sex by modifying body parts.

We should be free to do (generally) whatever the heck we want to do.

You are free to consume raw milk. You are not free to sell it to others. This seems reasonable to me - same as most food safety regulations.

Can sell it soon in West Virginia.

https://getrawmilk.com/content/raw-milk-legalized-in-west-vi...

Looks like in 2016 it was only available through a herdshare thing. Not really sure what that is. I guess that's how the delegate in the original article got it.

Herd share is just shared ownership of a herd. Usually used as an end-around regulations on milk and meat production (as a co-owner of the livestock, you can consume whatever you want without regulation).

You’re expecting rationality from an irrational actor or actors. Not an effective use of time.

Claims range from raw milk containing more protein, more antimicrobials, and reducing asthma. None of which stand up to review.[1]. Just another woo-woo anti-science fad.

Protein - casein isn't impacted by the amount of heat during pasteurization. Whey sees minimal loss, but not enough to really impact the nutrition.

Antimicrobials - impacted by refrigeration, regardless of pasteurization.

Asthma - no proof of causation, mild correlation in children.

1 - https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/drinking-raw-milk#claim...

What you get is the edgy satisfaction of going contrary to the CDC, and the ability to performatively show your distrust of "the experts." It's become another wacky Conservative shibboleth[1], another Culture War symbol, at least in the USA.

> At the same time, conservatives discovered that raw milk fit neatly inside a worldview that was increasingly skeptical of credentialed expertise.

EDIT: I suggest downvoters at least try reading the link, and then come back to HN to vote. Raw Milk Politics is, surprisingly, highly partisan. It's all about thumbing one's nose at The Experts.

1: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/03/10/the-alt-ri...

Raw milk is often touted for its health benefits, including higher levels of vitamins, minerals, and enzymes that can be destroyed during pasteurization.

Raw milk supports better digestion due to the presence of natural enzymes like lactase, which can help lactose-intolerant individuals.

It also contains beneficial bacteria that can enhance gut health and boost the immune system.

Homogenization, a process where milk is forced through small openings under high pressure to break down fat molecules and create a uniform consistency, is another step in milk processing.

This process alters the structure of fat molecules, which some believe impacts the nutritional quality and digestibility of milk.

Raw milk avoids both pasteurization and homogenization, retaining its natural separation of cream and milk, and preserving its original nutritional profile. Pasteurization and homogenization reduces some nutritional content and alter the milk's natural state.

It’s the difference between cold pressed juices and the fake orange juice that has been heated millions of times and the manufacture re-adds vitamin C because the processs killed off its natural vitamin C

(Meta note: I vouched for this comment because it provides precisely the reply I was looking for, not as a endorsement of what it says or the person saying it)

It's nice if you're into home cheesemaking. E.g. with Mozzarella or Ricotta you have to heat milk up to pasteurization temperature during the process but if your milk comes pre-pasteurized then that's somewhat comparable to re-heating pre-cooked ingredients to make your dinner.

Coincidence? Or poor hygiene standards? I have been consuming raw milk from safe, controlled, legal sources in Europe for decades without any issues.

The differences in US and EU farming practices is sometimes astounding, both in terms of hygiene and animal welfare. It's still not a great idea to drink unpasteurised milk here in Europe though. Udders still get dirty, cows still get infections - you can still get unlucky.

From 2016, although mistakes were made, not sure any lessons learned.

Maybe a good lesson for 2024 though, given bird flu spreading unchecked among cows.

Lessons definitely not learned.

> One sick delegate, Pat McGeehan, agrees with the stomach bug theory. He states, "I had a small sip and walked away and tossed the rest of it. I highly doubt raw milk had anything to do with it, in my case." The local news station spent some time in McGeehan's office while he laid on a sofa, his hand over his face, moaning about stomach cramps.

What is with the sudden, coordinated push against raw milk?

There's currently a widespread outbreak of H5N1 bird flu in America's dairies, so it's in the news.

https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2024/05/25/g-...

I don't buy it. This isn't the first crusade against raw milk. The previous attempts had nothing to do with bird flu. It's a bizarre thing to mobilize a nation-wide campaign against, yet it keeps happening.

> This isn't the first crusade against raw milk.

Well, sure. It has always had a risk to it.

You'll see a lot of articles about washing salads when there's an active E. coli or listeria outbreak in bagged salads, without some dark conspiracy being involved.

I find it amusing that you think this disproves my point in any way.

Perhaps you could clarify your point, then, as you've argued that recent articles about raw milk constitute a conspiracy against it, while simultaneously acknowledging that concerns are hardly new or unusual. Which is it?

You have it backwards. It’s a sudden, coordinated push to legalize the sale of raw milk. Raw milk sales have been regulated/banned in most of the US for many decades.

No, I don't. There is no coordinated push to have it legalized.

Laws legalizing/deregulating something that was previously banned/regulated don't get written without coordination.

Raw milk takes time to get used to, and also you have to boil it before consuming it (know this from spending summers in India).

Boiling raw milk makes it... not raw. You've pasteurized it.

This is an astounding thread.

Why drink milk that has been pasteurized when you can just buy more expensive raw milk and pasteurize it yourself?

Astounding.

Eh, I tried it and it still tastes different for sure when it is not homogenized

Homogenization and pasteurization are different things. My local dairy offers cream-top non-homogenized milk; it's still pasteurized. (They also use a lower temperature, longer exposure process.)

Have you tried milk that has been flash pasteurized? Asking because I’ve noticed it’s been hard to find of recent and you mentioned a local dairy (which is usually more willing to offer alternatives depending on local market and resources). Recommend if you haven’t tried it! The taste profile gives a hint of sweetness while extending shelf life of the product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_pasteurization

My dairy (https://www.pittsfordfarmsdairy.com/dairy) does 145°F vat pasteurization for 30 minutes.

I'd imagine flash pasteurization is better than the ultra-high temperature technique the average grocery store milk uses (280°F for two seconds), but having made lots of things like custards I'm willing to bet the difference between 145 and 165, even if for a much shorter time, is pretty huge.

I can't drink the grocery store stuff any more.

There is an incredible anti-expert mentality sweeping the globe. "I never hear of people getting sick from raw milk!" Because it's illegal. "I never hear of people getting smallpox!" Because we have vaccines. "What do you mean the Earth is warming? Why is there still snow in winter?" Suddenly if a person can't instantly be an expert on a topic, then that means the person with 20 years of expertise is lying. Truly bizarre.

Maybe the "covid" madness destroyed any trust in these so-called experts and for good reason

Sadly, it long predates COVID, COVID and Trmp just happened to give anti-expert loonies a larger platform and attention. Had people actually been willing to listen and really crack down for a month, we could have saved millions of people. Had people actually been willing to take vaccines, a technology that's been in use for centuries, we could have saved millions more. I'll never smell properly again thanks to COVID carriers out and about with no protection.

Then... It's no longer raw milk for purpose of this discussion. That's pretty much what pasteurization is, (using heat to partially sterilize milk), which is what these folks are inexplicably fighting :-(

Reply on news.ycombinator.com