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Comment by rramadass | Hacker News Reader

The Samkhya school of Hindu Philosophy posits a very nice model of Worldview which is applicable here.

See the venn diagram of Purusha and Prakriti at - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya#Philosophy

Relevant Excerpt:

Thought processes and mental events are conscious only to the extent they receive illumination from Purusha. In Samkhya, consciousness is compared to light which illuminates the material configurations or 'shapes' assumed by the mind. So intellect, after receiving cognitive structures from the mind and illumination from pure consciousness, creates thought structures that appear to be conscious. Ahamkara, the ego or the phenomenal self, appropriates all mental experiences to itself and thus, personalizes the objective activities of mind and intellect by assuming possession of them. But consciousness is itself independent of the thought structures it illuminates.

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If I may attempt to paraphrase:

"You" are not "your thoughts": you are the watcher of your thoughts.

The eye is the lens that sees itself.

Yes; but that is only "Purusha" aka "Witness-Consciousness" as wikipedia so nicely labels it. But it is in the elaboration of "Thoughts/Emotions/Feelings/Perceptions/Everything Mental/Psychological" + "All Physical Matter" which is labeled under "Prakriti" aka "The Original Primary Substance" where the beauty and logic of this philosophy shines.

All "mental stuff" is mediated by three aspects i.e. 1) Intellect (aka Buddhi), 2) Ego/Self-Identity (aka Ahamkara) and 3) Sensory Mind (aka Manas). It is in the teasing out of all mental stuff into these aspects as being completely independent of "Consciousness" (aka Purusha) that is to be understood and practiced. In "normal life" Consciousness is bound to the above three aspects of "mind" and hence "suffers bondage". Patanjali Raja Yoga follows on Samkhya by giving a eight-part framework/discipline (aka Ashtanga Yoga) to literally "stop all mental/thought stuff creation/expansion". Then Consciousness is no longer bound to externalities (including its own "mind") but becomes settled within itself which is called Liberation (aka Moksha).

The Samkhya is Atheistic and Dualistic Realism and quite compatible with Modern Science where the former gives a "inside out" experiential and subjective model while the latter details a "outside in" material model.

> The Samkhya is Atheistic

This is not true. There are both theistic and atheistic branches in the Sāṁkhya school. It is a myth that Sāṁkhya is atheistic. In fact, Patanjali himself is in the theistic school of Sāṁkhya as he talks about: "īśvara praṇidhāna" in the sūtras and even defines īśvara.

Here's a fantastic lecture by Edwin Bryant discussing the Īśvara of Yoga Sūtras and Sāṁkhya in general: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGXzTf6ZA-4

The Original "Classical Samkhya" is Atheistic and Dualistic Realism. It is only in later modifications/extensions that the concept of "God" was added in, which is strictly speaking not necessary. Wikipedia gives the debate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya#Views_on_God See the texts Samkhya Karika/Panchasikha Sutram/Kapila Sutras in the magnum opus by Nandalal Sinha titled The Samkhya Philosophy (contains a translation of all extant Samkhya texts in over 700 pages!). Also see the books of Gerald Larson (one of the foremost western scholars on Samkhya) to get an idea of the evolution of the entire Samkhya School.

In Patanjali Yoga Sutras the concept of "God" is merely used as an entity and technique to help you in your practice to break out of your self-identity (i.e. Ahamkara). It is just one among a set of techniques. There is only half a dozen sutras which even mention god in the entire text (see this succinct translation by Bon Giovanni - https://sacred-texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm). It is in the later commentaries on the text that you find an elaboration according to the pre-existing beliefs of the author.

> It is only in later modifications/extensions that the concept of "God" was added in, which is strictly speaking not necessary.

You can turn it the other way round and the claim would be even more valid: Atheism came later in the Sāṁkhya schools. The scholars have a bias towards atheism so it's not surprising they'd claim that.

This is proven by the fact that the Mahabhārata's Bhīṣma-parva has a whole chapter on Mokśa-dharma which give us the very first signs of a proto-sāṁkhya philosophy and it is very much theistic. Also, the later added atheistic Kapila philosophy is a deviation from the original Kapila, the avatar of Lord Viṣṇu.

Even Patanjali is mentioned as Śeṣa in the scriptures and every school agrees with it. Śvetāśvataropaniṣad is one of the earliest references to Sāṁkhya and is very much theistic. Sāṁkhya being atheistic is a fiction. There were atheistic Sāṁkhya branches but it was never 'only' atheistic.

> "God" is merely used as an entity

That is true, because Patanjali's project was "svarūpe avasthānam", the method by which the seer can abide in its own nature. Īśvara is merely used as a prop to gain something else, which is okay because that is what Yoga Sūtra is about but it does not mean Sāṁkhya was originally atheistic or that theistic Sāṁkhya is a later addition.

> You can turn it the other way round and the claim would be even more valid: Atheism came later in the Sāṁkhya schools.

No, current scholarship is unanimous in accepting that the Atheistic view came first. Unless some new unknown texts come to light to make us revise the dates that is what we have to live with.

Outside of the classic sutra texts mentioned above, there is only the "Kapilopadesha" from the Bhagavatha Purana and "Kapila-Gita" from the Mahabharatha which seem to espouse proper Samkhya philosophy. All other mentions in the upanishads/vedas/puranas/itihasas seem to be just a mention without any substantial details.

The Historical Development section gives a good overview - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya#Historical_development

Who cares what prescientific people thought first or second? The order in which they thought these prescientific thoughts has no bearing on the correctness of those thoughts.

Proverbs 17:28

Most of Sāṁkhya is theistic and came first. All purāṇas are sāṁkhya and theistic. Mahābhārata is theistic. Even Īśvara Krṣṇa never rejects īśvara in the kārikas. Only Gaudapada rejects it explicitly in his commentary. The sūtras, which came much later also don't reject īśvara, they just say it's not necessary (anivārya) to discuss, just like Darwinian Evolution, it's not necessary to presuppose there's a God but theists will still say that God sets it up in the first place.

To say something is not necessary doesn't entail that it's doesn't exist or that it's philosophically untenable.

Śankara does debate with atheistic Sāṁkhya so I'm not saying that it's not the case but it's a mistake to claim that Sāṁkhya is non-theistic because that's what some authors write when it's not the case. The majority of Sāṁkhya traditions were īśvara-vāda, theistic.

You watch, but you also influence. If you had no influence on your thoughts, you wouldn't think "I am the watcher".

Sāṁkhya is the GOAT! Very happy to see this comment here.

Their metaphysics is way ahead, even now we see many brilliant people (scientists) struggling with metaphysics whereas Sāṁkhya clearly lays out stuff with logical reasoning. While modern people still can't define consciousness clearly, Sāṁkhya goes above and beyond to define it in detail, using material language to describe the immaterial.

It's a shame that the philosophy never got exported to the west, like the poses of Aṣtānga Yoga, which too are a part of Sāṁkhya school.

The difficulty in understanding Samkhya lies in the complex definition of "Prakriti" which the wikipedia page nicely clarifies as;

In Sāṃkhya puruṣa signifies the observer, the 'witness'. Prakṛti includes all the cognitive, moral, psychological, emotional, sensorial and physical aspects of reality. It is often mistranslated as 'matter' or 'nature' – in non-Sāṃkhyan usage it does mean 'essential nature' – but that distracts from the heavy Sāṃkhyan stress on prakṛti's cognitive, mental, psychological and sensorial activities. Moreover, subtle and gross matter are its most derivative byproducts, not its core. Only prakṛti acts.

Samkhya is first and foremost a experiential worldview. Wikipedia again;

Prakriti is the source of our experience; it is not "the evolution of a series of material entities," but "the emergence of experience itself". It is description of experience and the relations between its elements, not an explanation of the origin of the universe.

Finally, the concept of the "Gunas" are also quite difficult to understand in full generality. Wikipedia fails in this case to clarify matters - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu%E1%B9%87a

Nietzsche Schopenhauer and others reference Samkhya. It’s definitely had an influence but it’s definitely subterranean. Western philosophers all want to sound scientific and using old eastern phenomenology somehow undermines that.

So much eastern philosophy is just really good phenomenology, and some Japanese philosophers like Nishida tried to combine Husserl and Buddhism, but it’s the same thing, I think western phenomenologists have some sort of insecurity, so they implicitly condescend to the eastern thought.

It is not very satisfying to a philosopher to say “looks like this one’s already been figured out”. The original “not invented here” syndrome :)

This sounds like the distinction between phenomenal and meta consciousness.

Relevant article from Scientific American Consciousness goes deeper than you think - https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/observations/conscio...

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