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I live in Iowa, and I had a roommate who just stopped going to work one day.

I learned after talking to her that she had done this before. In talking to her, it seemed to me a mix of anxiety and depression with a focus on agoraphobia.

Her family from several hundred miles came to retrieve her when they contacted me. She asked to move back in later, but I declined. I saw her start a new career some years afterwards.

I don't know if the "laying flat/tang ping" movement in China, or the issues of the people in the article, are completely separate from this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping

the laying flat movement has mostly to do with lack of jobs/opportunity for young people.

- there's a societal trend to not hire people over the age of 30-35 in China. after months of looking for work, they've given up

- there's an unofficial 70% youth unemployment rate, and with 12 million new grads each year and intense competition for government work, sometimes hundred of applicants for a single stable government spot, the new grads give up

- the young generation has realized that no house/car/marriage/kid (没房没车没妻子) is a good way to live, and there's no pressure on them to create a life. so they lay flat. thus the abysmal marriage/child rate in China, which is near the bottom of world ranking

- the new grads don't want to work in a factory, day or night shift, for $2/hour.

- if the workers are in 1st tier cities, they can barely save up any money working and living there, due to the recent 50% reduction in wages ($1000/month -> $500/month) and increased spending on necessities. so it's easier for them to just not work and live off of parents.

> there's a societal trend to not hire people over the age of 30-35 in China

> there's an unofficial 70% youth unemployment rate

> , due to the recent 50% reduction in wages

I couldn't find anything on these points. The second one seems completely unbelievable while also being at odds with the first claim.

What are you referring to?

It's typically on Chinese social media apps, and when they get popular they get taken down immediately by the government

here are some remnants in non-chinese websites.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2023-06/26/c_1129716071.htm

https://botanwang.com/articles/202308/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E5%...

https://www.voachinese.com/a/more-chinese-white-collar-worke...

if you want to verify secondary effects: Retail sales of passenger cars in China declined to 1.095 million units, down 21% from a year earlier and 46% from January. https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/chinas-vehicle-sales-drop.... A decline of real estate development investment widened to 9.5% in the first quarter from 9% in the first two months https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-16/china-hom... Stingy Chinese shoppers are returning their goods, erasing up to 75% of their sales value.https://fortune.com/asia/2024/04/17/luxury-brands-new-headac...

Popping the residential real estate investment bubble was probably the root cause behind the collapse in sales of cars, luxury goods, and other consumer products. A lot of consumers who had made highly leveraged investments on unoccupied apartments in "ghost cities" were sitting on significant paper wealth for a few years and felt comfortable spending money. Now that has largely evaporated.

Last time I tracked this closely: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N3960Z5/

The last official youth employment hit over 20% before China stopped publishing the figure.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-stop-releasing-you...

Basically there is a trend of overeducation; China is producing millions more university graduates than it needs, without enough white collar jobs, and at the same time there are a lot of job openings in much more poorly paid factory work. This is not unique in East Asia, South Korea also has a lot of youth unemployment for similar reasons. https://keia.org/the-peninsula/low-youth-employment-in-korea...

Also, China is currently suffering from deflation because it produces many more goods than it can consume or export, and wages are also being cut.

> lack of jobs/opportunity for young people.

> there's a societal trend to not hire people over the age of 30-35 in China

Did you mean "under" or is it more complicated than "young people"?

tang ping is just an internet slang. Didn't expect it to have a wikipedia page.

In China, the "normal" is "to try to be the best". For example, less than half of Chinese students can make it into a "good college" (in China there's a very specific definition of a "good college"), but if you didn't make it, like more than 50% of your peers, that's enough to say that you're "bad at studying".

tang ping basically means quiting this kind of culture and accepting that one's normal. Buying a house and settling down in a city that's not Beijing or Shanghai, like 90% of people do.

It has nothing to do with social withdrawal.

These people have always existed. In the 20th century we just called them “shut-ins”. People who socially isolate themselves.

As kids there would be the old run down house with an older man or lady who would rarely be seen. They would be dressed shabbily, and the house would be poorly maintained but livable.

These people weren't always bathed in the desires of a global culture (that does not work).

Equally, I know plenty of "Bruce Wayne" types who don't live in crappy conditions, are highly in-demand for their skills and extensive knowledge, but are very much asocial when it comes to in-person stuff.

"Money" has also generally been the issue for me. Not simply the money to get to and enjoy activities. The money to meet (sometimes unrealistic) expectations of physical presentation (including clothing, grooming, the time and energy and diet required to work out) and therefore feel comfortable among people who will judge you for it - including, crucially and as a black man, authorities. The money to keep up with friends who might want to do things you didn't necessarily budget for. The money to feel comfortable with all of this while managing other necessary expenses (including, for some, supporting family).

When I had a job, I definitely didn't have the money for all of this, particularly while living in a hoity-toity resort town (and particularly when it became much more hoity and toity and white during the summer). Making rent was much easier (read: possible) when I just went home every day.

I have some other thoughts, particularly about how the modern job market makes it more difficult for young people to build durable relationships at work (which, as much as legal might abhor it, is indeed one of the avenues through which many young people make friends). Might edit/reply later with those. Suffice it to say, when layoffs disrupt the already imperiled process, you end up with a lot of people entering their late 20s/early 30s with social lives that are exceedingly fragile, if they're even extant.

this is a good post about topics people don't discuss enough. thank you for sharing.

Money vs. Time. If you need too much money to even be able to socialize that only leads to misery. The best way to socialize is to do projects on your free time with other people, there will always be some who are too tired to work much in their spare time and that is ok as long as you are invested. The big lie is that everyone is a Millionaire and that you have to spend money to socialize. Workers unions have historically in Europe and the US tried to create places where people could socialize without having to spend money. That is something I took advantage of and lent my time to as a young adult, I should spend more money on that now that I have it.

At some point, I became so angry with this feeling that I stopped caring about what people would think of me altogether. However, this was somewhat destructive for me. Eventually, I seeked help.

If you don't mind, how has the seeking help fare? I'm interested for my own situation.

It was a good decision for me. But I'm still in a process of learning to love myself and it's a hard task to complete. I understand now that I should value the opinion of people that trully cares about me. But what I think is more important.

America has this too. It's homelessness. The drug abuse and mental illness makes it worse though. Unlike the comparably docile hikikomori, drug and alcohol use leads to erratic and aggressive behavior and makes accommodations and treatment impossible, hence homelessness.

100% this. I think the reason we see these people homeless in the US is due to the myth of the self-sufficiency. That if you can't succeed or fit in it's because you are deficient in some way. It makes it hard to ask for help and it's doubly so if you are introverted to this extreme.

Ask for help for many people is the hardest thing to do... It should become more normalized

Homelessness is the scariest thing for me. And actually I know that in many cases you became one without your actual influence on it. This problem breaks my heart.

I'm sorry for what you've been through and I hope your health gets better. However I believe you've phrased the following a bit poorly, although I'm sure unintentionally:

    some degree of social isolation is just practical and realistic.

Unfortunately this leads to connotations that encourage people completely out of touch with the ordinary person's lifestyle (billionaires, CEOs etc.) make outrageous claims and dictating how they should navigate life with minimum wage and no insurance e.g. that CEO who said skip breakfast to save money, or HN's favorites that we should just shut up and be content with modern tech automating our creative abilities instead of assisting us with menial tasks.

Instead if you had written social isolation is inevitable without controlled financial and health stability, you'd be 100% spot on.

Human, social isolation and practical/realistic just don't fit together.

Escaping something that's inevitable is not practical or realistic.

> we should just shut up and be content with modern tech automating our creative abilities instead of assisting us with menial tasks

This isn’t true. Dalle and ChatGPT are assists, they don’t really replace anything and make being creative more accessible. AI also helps with tons of menial tasks like code syntax

> Dalle and ChatGPT are assists, they don’t really replace anything and make being creative more accessible.

Proponents of these tools can keep saying this, but it doesn’t make it true.

Almost nothing these tools can do really helps the creation of art.

It absolutely is. I see plenty of AI art used to illustrate websites that would previously have used stock imagery for which someone got paid, even if only a small amount. Even in contexts where it is used as a free gift (ie adding AI art to social media posts that would have just been text before), it has the function of crowding out human made art by its very proliferation. It's like Greshams law for media files.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

I know where you're coming from. Chronic ill health can be a really isolated life. I get out once per fortnight to the supermarket, once per month to the pharmacy, once per 6 months to my GP. Other than that I get away from home maybe once every 2 or 3 months.

I've had people say they'd go mad living my life. Well when your body works against you you just have to suck it up and deal with it.

As for friends, I have very few because I'm angry all the time. Being alone helps not face charges.

Those people have completely taken over the west. You suffer alone in hopeless isolation if you are not like them. It isn't that you somehow didn't succeed - the majority simply prefers to be alone. Only the fact that the majority is "individualist" like this makes it much less obvious.

There are emotional and mental support groups, churches, community events, and all manner of things you can do for free that may help break your isolation. It takes effort to do this. I know you are struggling, but ultimately no one will help you but yourself, which is a hard pill to swallow.

Yet in this article, they were helped without needing to reach out first (a crucial part for a socially withdrawn person). American/European society just chooses to ignore and not help the same kind of people here.