Human Rights Record of United States in 2011
chinadaily.com.cn
chinadaily.com.cn
For those of us who keep track of US news, it's pretty obvious that the human rights situation there is "variable", to say the least. You rarely hear about people being wrongly killed by the police in Europe, whereas in the US it appears to be relatively frequent. As for freedom... let's not go there. The easily manipulated US government is probably the single most important political force for evil in the fight to protect our rights online.
Anyway, so, totally off-topic, but a smart approach from China...
Consider that, in the US, people were able to protest and stop SOPA and PIPA from coming to pass. In China, the government controls the entire internet. It's actually debatable that we could be having a similar conversation about the government, on a site like this one, were we in China right now. The U.S. detains certain people without warrant or trial in its misguided "war on terror." But the PRC can detain any of its citizens, at any time, for any reason, and often does.
It's interesting to consider the hypocrisies and inconsistencies of our own government and society. I'm all for it. But we shouldn't lose sight of reality.
In the US the government controls the entire internet, as well as every information every company holds, including facebook, twitter, google and apple - as well as Intel and Microsoft.
The PRC and the US both have "legitimate" ways to detain any citizen or non-citizen at any time, for any reason, and often do.
I would like to insist that there is NO difference on that specific point since the patriot act.
SOPA and PIPA aren't govt related, they're big content's attempt at having it's own control channel over the internet.
By the way, you forget the positive aspects of China, like those emphasized in the article: In a communist country, there's real security.
My grandparents were in USSR in the 70's, and many like them said they had absolutely NO FEAR AT ALL letting their kids play outside.
That's right dream on. You'll never get that in the US, unless you have your own security.
Then how come Hacker News exists and I can say what I want here?
Try that in China some time =)
You obviously have extremely little first hand experience with America. Look up the crime stats for Boise, Idaho some time on city data. America is an extraordinarily diverse nation, the most diverse nation in world history to be exact, and it has every sort of living style and environment you could want to choose from.
Don't like the crime in Chicago, move to a safer city at your leisure. Seattle is beautiful, and so is Austin TX. Don't like Florida? Move to Virginia. Don't like Vermont, move to NYCity. Don't like NYC? Move to San Francisco. Don't like urban, America is massive and extremely low population density, so move rural. And on and on.
What I mean is if we're going to talk about countries, we take country-wide data and not cherrypick.
Also, your urban/population density points would apply to China.
Neither are relevant to the topic and nor is this whole article HN-worthy tbh, though China's retaliatory actions here are interesting. :)
You'll note that in no way have I said China doesn't have exactly the same, safe rural areas, or even safe urban areas.
What I said is: America does have those things. My response was to point out that the notion of America being nothing but a giant crime wave or an extraordinarily dangerous place is pure myth. The reality is: America has just about everything, pick what kind of life you want accordingly, and pursue it.
And Morg: the points about Europe would be interesting, except most of Europe allows exceptionally little immigration. So how can outsiders even consider benefiting even if it were the safest place on earth crime wise?
Look up the immigration rates for: Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Norway, etc. I'm sure you already know this however. Then look up America's extreme immigration over the past 100 years. How do you think 20% of our population got to be hispanic? We have a long history of allowing a relatively high amount of immigration (particularly compared to the rest of the world). It's how we become the world's melting pot.
It's not easy to get into America, but it's radically easier than becoming a citizen of most European nations just based on the extremely limited numbers they allow in.
Racism imho is one of the minor issues though, I'm far more concerned by the police state aspects of the US than the cultural details (such as everyone is fat woohooo).
And if you want to talk about shadow immigration, or people that fall through the cracks, Europe has plenty of that. You must know that. Take a look at the African immigration in France and Spain over the last 20 years, and then look at how many are under the radar. Europe also gets a massive amount of abuse from immigrants that leech off the social systems and never work and contribute properly, which is helping to make the looming EU bankruptcy even worse, which is amping up the rapidly rising xenophobia currently going on Europe, such that the Nazi Party is rising in Greece, and the extreme right is gaining in many nations.
The whoohoo on your fat comment certainly betrays to the flippant nature of it. 26% to 27% of people in the UK are obese, in America it's about 33%. Australia and New Zealand is around 24% to 25%. Chile is 25%. Ireland is 23% to 24%. Canada is 25% obese as well. Mexico is about the same as America on obesity. Clearly the problem is greatest in America, but it's hardly alone in the obesity problem.
If you've ever read the book, The China Study, you obviously understand why these countries have such obesity and higher cancer rates that, for example, China has traditionally avoided. However, now China is gradually switching to a killer western diet, particularly among the affluent, and they're seeing skyrocketing obesity and heart disease rates.
You're concerned about the police state aspects of America? So am I, I live here, and it's very disturbing. China is a police state almost by definition, but that doesn't seem to concern you at all. And the police state is rising all over the place, take a look at some of the police state actions and laws being passed in Britain where you practically can't step out your front door without showing up on a cctv.
I'm in the U.S. and I can tell you that I don't like the direction our government is heading. And after typing that, I'm not expecting the police to show up (though I am expecting the comment to appear on HN).
I'm happy to hear that the Chinese are so happy (and safe, etc) living in China ... everyone should get a chance at happiness.
I don't have the time to read the whole article, but here's a few thoughts:
Regarding On life, property and personal security, this section is about violent crime in the U.S. Indubitably, violent crime is particularly bad in some parts of the U.S., but is this part of the 'human rights record' of the federal government? In essence, the Chinese government here is implying that the fact that the U.S. government doesn't outlaw gun ownership results in violent crime.
Throughout most of the text, it just strikes me that the notion of what constitutes "human rights" is unclear. Some people believe that human rights are about the recognition of individual liberty and freedom from government intrusion. Others believe that human rights are about achieving equality and freedom from want. The Chinese government is certainly sympathetic to the latter definition, at least in this report. While this is a point of view favoured by many, in the U.S. the former view of human rights is still strong.
Finally, some of the points made by the Chinese are simply symbolic. For example, they criticise the U.S. for not ratifying the "Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW)". That is true, but the U.S.'s laws and enforcement are considered better than China with respect to CEDAW.
Is Obama a terrible President? A great President? Debate it endlessly, but he was elected by a massive wave of popular support in a democratic fashion, beating an opponent (Clinton) that vastly outmatched him in theory.
Doesn't mean the US isn't still going to continue driving right off the cliff, but with those pieces in place, it'll be nobody's fault but our own if we don't take the opportunity and remaining critical freedoms to reverse course and fix the system peacefully.
My eyes are in no way closed, and what you said is not a valid retort, it's proof that you have nothing to say.
Sure, by voting for one of two parties that have existed for centuries and been sponsored by the same 1% for as long.
You have the potential to watch your fellow americans brainwashed a bit more everyday into accepting their function as modern slaves with less and less benefits and more and more stress.
Americans get to choose. If they choose to be brainwashed as you call it, then that's their volition. If America collapses, it will be the responsibility of the people that they didn't use their voice while they had it.
The Chinese do not get to choose anything. Every time they try - and they have tried - they get violently put down by their own government. In China, nothing like the Occupy movement would ever be tolerated at all, those people would not be allowed to squat on park property and protest, they would not be allowed to march, they would not be allowed to do even a fraction of what they got away with here in the states, and it sure as hell wouldn't all be filmed and put on YouTube for everybody to see.
The various movements of the 1960s and 1970s would have been completely impossible in China. Try holding a rally for free unionization rights in China some time, see how that goes.
Try openly and expressively declaring your religious beliefs. See how much they love that.
The various movements of the 60s and 70s are completely impossible in the western world now, the brainwashing is far too advanced for that.
Unionization doesn't make sense in communism. It amounts to revolution. Try a revolution in the US and call me back when you've completed your twentieth mandatory cavity search for security purposes.
I don't think you saw much of Gitmo on Youtube, even less today - luckily with the patriot act, anyone who pisses off the govt will get his own personal gitmo experience.
At least China doesn't pretend they respect the human rights - I think that's what the article was about, and fundamentally right.
Argue based on issues. Clearly address each issue your 'opponent' raised. Substantiate it with facts. Link to reliable sources if possible. Point out weak points in your own argument and why you think your general point still stands. Don't commit logical fallacies (see http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ ).
Both of you raise valid points. Engaging in a discussion would probably make us all better off in the end. Currently I can only read "your country is stupider than mine!".
Interpret the possessive 'your' as you will.
I'm willing to be objective about America and China's faults. The problem with the person I'm arguing with, is that that person is not willing to be objective about China's faults, and is more than willing to be biased about America's faults.
In my observation, most first world countries have the same societal problems that America does (or some modest variation), the big difference is whether they're publicized heavily or not. For example, America gets accused of being a highly racist nation: well, how racist is Japan? How about African racism? How about antisemitism in France? How about the Muslim ghettos in France? How about the extreme xenophobia in many nice European nations? Nobody likes to talk about that, and Americans are mostly ignorant of it, but it's all over the BBC's news reports regularly.
I believe we totally agree him and me on the main point: neither China nor the US have a clean record and they're more or less each as dirty as the other.