I'm a Former Surgeon General and I Couldn't Believe My $10k Medical Bill
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Like the proverbial crabs in a bucket, only pulling each other down. https://x.com/JeromeAdamsMD/status/1761375417351430595
Ha!
I needed to visit a sports therapist. Called an office near me and asked the cost to see the doctor.
> We can’t say, we don’t know what procedures the doctor might order.
I understand, I say. Just tell me how much for the consultation. Walk in the door and see the doctor.
> [repeat]
Let’s take the most common case. Say the doctor orders cortisone shot, but I decline this care. Then how much?
> Don’t you have insurance?
Yes. As I stated earlier I do have insurance, but I don’t have a co-pay plan. I have a deductible plan—-i don’t know why I need to explain the difference—-that means I pay full price until I reach my high yearly deductible. Since I haven’t been sick, I’m at $0 right now.
> Where did you get our number?
From my health insurance’s web site.
> I don’t think this is the doctor’s office for you. Click.
First time: Over $11,000
Second time: Under $900
Last go around, the hospital coded the drug as coming from their supply instead of CVS so I got a surprise bill for $130,000+
Luckily, I've been through the process so there's records of the normal billing path. I fought the Hospital billing department and 5 months later I'm billed $700 which was about the expected amount.
It was still stressful and time consuming to figure out if I screwed up to the tune of 6 figures.
Glad he's getting the treatment he needs!! Drugs have made incredible advances in the last decade.
And yes drugs have made incredible advances -- my aunt (and hence my brother's aunt) had MS and her life was ruined by it.
Pretty amazing to see something advance that quickly with such a stark difference in outcomes between 2 of my own family members.
When my brother told me it was relatively benign given they caught it early and he had access to treatment I was like "I read 10 books for the MS Readathon in Year 1... You're welcome!"
He was prescribed a very new drug which has worked brilliantly and saved his life.
The first time he left the pharmacy with his monthly prescription, the pharmacist told him to take care, because the pills he'd given him cost more than $20k. For a months supply. The cost to him - absolutely nothing.
I am on an HDHP and arrange my finances and budget with the expectation that I will reach my out-of-pocket maximum. I am thankful that I am in a position to do that. The backside being that I am under enormous constraint in terms of my employer. They literally own my health, as while I am skilled and valued, I doubt that I am skilled and valued enough for another employer to keep me after poaching me away. I would expect something in the off-the-record review comments of "...health care costs are how much!?!?" followed by quiet PIP-and-dismissal or dismissal outright under the laws of my state-of-residence in the United States. Yes, I live in a right-to-work state, meaning that my employment can be terminated at any time, by either party, for any reason, or no reason given at all.
You joke, but this is what my wife does for her infusion. Drugs get shipped to our house, and nurse comes to the house to administer the infusion. She gets to spend the time on the couch watching TV instead of in a hospital. And as a another indictment to the broken health care system, this is actually cheaper to the insurer!
There is $2.25T per year of savings to be had. We can eliminate our national debt in 15 years, and with that also eliminate the $1T going to $1.5T of interest payments we pay each year on the debt, so a total savings down the road of about $3.5T per year.
To put that in perspective, our entire national budget was a bit less than $4T pr year pre pandemic.
There is absolutely nothing else that comes close to the potential savings on healthcare. All of the schemes I have seen whether they are tax increases or cutbacks in other programs, even the extreme ones, *might* save $2T over 10 years.
What do we need to stop doing? All of the billing shenanigans with insurance. We need to stop insuring regular healthcare, and go back to insuring catestrophic healthcare.
What we do now with healthcare is like buying car insurance that pays for oil changes.
Good point. In NZ we are covered for accidents, infections, heart attacks, etc.
But get lung cancer from smoking and you are paying yourself. It's not perfect, but sets priorities to live healthy.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/health/lung-cancer-young-and-...
If you do not have the agency to select an in-network provider (because you are mortally wounded / incapacitated / etc.), then the out-of-network provider should be legally transmuted into an in-network one. The insurer should be compelled to pay, and the provider compelled to accept it.
One of the linked articles[1] explains it slightly better:
> Surprise medical bills happen when a doctor or other provider who isn’t in a patient’s insurance network is unexpectedly involved in a patient’s care. Patients may go to a hospital that accepts their insurance, for example, but get treatment from emergency room physicians or anesthesiologists who don’t — and who then send patients big bills directly.
I've seen this in my own medical billing: often times, I will get bills (to the insurance) from "providers" I had no (direct) interaction with. And that's the thing: if a in-network provider contracts/vendors/(who knows, I don't know how their business is structured) to some other company, you get billed "randomly". Sometimes I can piece together exactly what action caused it (e.g., okay, that ultrasound is this random charge), but not all the time.
Insurers refuse to help: they claim it's not their problem, as they're not billing you. Providers will claim they know nothing; after all, it isn't them that billed you.
[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/01/upshot/surprise-medical-b...
You want to know if a doctor is in network? Good luck, because the insurance company clearly states that they only provide that information on a best effort basis. The doctor can’t answer, as they refer you back to your insurance company.
You want an outpatient surgery? Great! Make sure your doctor and facility is in network, right? Oops, wrong again! You forgot about the anesthesiologist who you can’t pick ahead of time and is rarely in network. Good luck figuring that out later!
It’s intended to wear you down until you’re afraid of your “rating” aka credit score tanking enough that you just pay up.
https://www.cms.gov/nosurprises/ending-surprise-medical-bill...
It’s trivial to be coerced into signing one of these agreements when you’re in a high stress high stakes environment.
> If you get other types of services at these in-network facilities, out-of-network providers can't balance bill you, _unless you give written consent and give up your protections._
Turns out she was out of network, and the cost of the anesthesia on top of my in-network hospital bill was around $1050.
I knew full well the ER visit was going to sting, but I had no idea how much. The amount after insurance was almost exactly what was quoted in this article (almost like they plan that). That pretty much maxed out his OOP max, but I'm not wealthy enough that 5k doesn't make me mad. It shouldn't matter, but it feels worse that it was just a stomach bug, so $2 worth of anti nausea meds (that the hospital charged $150 for) was all we got out of it.
Rationally, I don't really see a way out for (possible) emergencies. That care is expensive, and HDHPs are a bit of a gamble that usually pay off if you're healthy. The OOP max ensures you won't be financially ruined, and 'cadillac plans' or gov care just means you pay far more in premiums or taxes for the majority of the years.
Sucks though we have to guess how much health care we might use in the coming year.
On a postivie note if you hit your family max for the year, try and stuff in as much medical care you can.
The other thing I learned, since the hospital was unwilling to negotiate on total price is that they just want you to commit to paying and will give you a long, low monthly, zero interest payment plan to make that happen. I'm a 'no debt' kind of guy, but if they'll float me a loan for free, I plan to just keep adding future visits to this network to my payment plan indefinitely.
Of course, why the insurance company agreed to some ridiculous price is a pretty fair question.
An obvious example of this is with prescription drugs. I have a monthly script that is something insane like $250 'U&C' charge, but after insurance, it's $90. However, at a particular pharmacy, with GoodRx, it's $21. Paying 'cash' with GoodRx ends up being the better deal, even though it doesn't count towards my OOP/deductible with the insurance, because I'm not likely to hit that with a HDHP.
Would my total cash outlay for a hospital visit be cheaper without insurance? Maybe, but the fact that I can't determine that upfront unlike what I can do with a script is what is infuriating.
I've adopted a similar mindset with my kid, now 18yrs old. Unless he'd broken a bone, is clearly in need of stitches, needs a vaccine or is otherwise laid low for more than a few days we'd try to stay out of the healthcare system.
The problem is the current system is basically a giant jobs program. Healthcare spending is approximately 17% of US GDP. Politicians are terrified of rocking the boat on this, so the system will always remain broken.
It's the billing afterwards that's the issue.
Absolutely anyone who’s ever dealt with healthcare system will tell you otherwise. From being denied necessary medical procedures because insurance doesn’t agree with it to subpar quality of care because how stretched the doctors and healthcare professionals are, US medical system is far from treating everyone well.
Aussie healthcare is the best I've seen (and I've seen a few). Basically free, with more speed or better care (or whatever) if you want to pay for it. Health insurance is like US$75 a month and not tied to employment.
There will be a charge for the facility itself. There will be a charge for the nurse that initially took you in and triaged you by looking at you and deciding you weren't immediately dying.
Then after sitting there for 4 hours, you might have gotten 10 minutes with a doctor who'd have said something like "You are ok, take a tylenol". This is not any run of the mill doctor, this is an ER doctor, so obviously their charges are in the thousands too.
Whenever this gets brought up someone replies with, "Well, it needs medical training to confirm that you are indeed ok", and I completely agree. And I won't be complaining if the whole visit costed a few hundred dollars. But a few thousand?
After to many of these we just have a family policy that we are the final arbiters of a reasonable and fair medical bill given the error rates in billing. We have a high enough credit score that collections doesn’t scare us.
Payment plans are ofcourse intentionally excluded due to 'abuse of the system' for others who can't afford to pay.
HDHP plus great price transparency (especially pre service, where one can potentially cross-shop providers, vs. being in a facility and given only one option) would be good for cost reduction; if you can't surface and measure the costs, you won't have any incentive to lower them.
I personally have a fairly mediocre $230/mo blue cross plan in Puerto Rico which largely only covers care within Puerto Rico (and which I've never actually used for anything), and rely on medical tourism where I pay 100% out of pocket, and until Amazon bought them, OneMedical for cheap clinic care which I also paid 100% out of pocket. I previously had a WA state HDHP for $100-200/mo pre-ACA which was great but ACA killed those/insurers left the state.
I don't understand why this hasn't become a boil-over issue for Americans yet.
Media keeps people distracted with idpol
Many people are also insulated by expensive insurance plans. HDHP are a long term play to generally make the public more familiar with the problem, as they will no longer be fully isolated from the prices.
A significant fraction of the additional cost in the US is due to all the administrative overhead that comes with negotiating prices with thousands of insurance providers, as well as dealing with not only primary insurance, but secondary, tertiary, and sometimes even quaternary insurance providers for any given patient. And, as mentioned elsewhere, it gets multiplexed over each doctor involved in your care, since each may work with a unique subset of insurance providers.
It seems to me that the costs for treatment in the USA are actually more than covered by the deductible. The rest is holiday money for the criminals running the system.
> Enhance transparency in healthcare pricing
So after you're in an emergency room, and a posted sign shows that to see any medical professional there, you'll be charged X plus a facilities fee Y. After you wait k hours to be seen, you're told that the treatment they think you need will cost Z. If you think that's too high, during an emergency do you try to go to a different hospital to see if they have the same treatment for W < Z?
> Institute arbitration for billing disputes
I mean, better than no arbitration, but if you're dealing with a serious illness , trying to recover from an injury or whatever, while getting time from work, bouncing between specialists for follow-up visits, still foggy from pain meds, etc should you need to navigate an arbitration process? Are you equipped to?
> Advocate for consumer protections: Educate and empower patients to advocate for themselves through measures such as the right to appeal surprise bills and negotiate payment plans with providers.
... so again, placing the burden on patients to defend themselves during what already may be a very challenging time in their life.
I think the highest level bit is that the most predictable cost for health care would be under a free-at-point-of-care, single-payer system, that lets us cut all the medical billing and medical insurance overhead out. Everyone pays the same (nothing!) for their care, and every earner pays a predictable amount for the system overall. Even if the exact same "amount" of health care was provided, we'd collectively pay less for it. But if we also went all-in on value-based/outcome-based care rather than fee-for-service, we might also be able to get people to live healthier longer lives with less total care (and costs). And no one who's sick or recovering from a medical crisis needs to spend their energy "advocating" for themselves, or in dispute arbitration, or researching which provider has the best prices for their needed service.
...or even $100k: https://abc7news.com/rabies-shot-hospital-bill-vacaville-ca-...
In an AMA, she said that the worst part of the bear attack wasn't the bear attack, but dealing with her health insurance. [1]
[0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-electio...
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1byn1l/i_was_mauled_b...
Anecdotally, I recently got a simple blood test to keep an eye on something that’s been borderline in the past. Unbeknownst to me, my doctor ordered nearly 30 things to be checked in the blood panel, at $50-$100 a piece. Luckily my insurance negotiated a much lower price and covered most of it, but I can’t imagine paying $2,000+ just to check e.g. your cholesterol level.
I think the problem is alignment of incentives: for a doctor, over-testing has little to no negative consequences, but under-testing could lead to guilt due to a patient dying, loss of reputation because something was missed, lawsuits, etc.
As a society, is this how we should be using our limited medical resources? What if we made fewer xray machines and instead spent more on something like cancer screening? How many net lives could we save?
"the onus of the entire amount still fell on me due to my high-deductible health plan (HDHP)."
I mean, yeah, that's how HDHP works. Anyone in healthcare should understand that.
> The average cost of life flight within the U.S. ranges between $12,000 and $25,000, according to NAIC (National Association of Insurance Commissioners). This is based on a 52-mile trip, which is also the average distance. This figure represents an out-of-pocket cost when not covered by insurance or calculated before an insurance company steps in. International flights can easily cost 3 to 5 times that amount. … In December 2020, Sean Deines was diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukemia (a fast-growing blood cancer) and took an air ambulance from Colorado to North Carolina, which also included ground transportation between hospitals and airports. His total bill was $489,000.
https://www.emergencyassistanceplus.com/resources/what-is-th...
The one I have experience with involved transportation between hospitals and it was covered. I've had experiences where other ground ambulance services were not covered.
Now, that might change as I get older and I need care for chronic conditions that wouldn't hit the out of pocket max but would be above the deductible. And they aren't right for everyone - you need to be making enough to max out your HSA. Companies pushing low wage earners into them are probably predatory.
I had a HDHP for a few years. $1500 deductible/$2500 OOP max; employer contributed $750/year. I loved the concept and contributed myself, but basically any doctors appointment I'd have would wipe out my contributions. I saw many doctors in 2021 due to random stomach issues that were ultimately GERD. I landed up paying out of pocket before hitting the deductible. I now have a PPO.
The issue is that they are often the cheapest plan to get (because of the HD part) and many HDHPs have crazy high deductibles and astronomical OOP maxes (with out of network deductibles and OOP maxes that are of this solar system), so that + people (understandably) not understanding medical insurance = a very bad time