Riven
filfre.net
filfre.net
There's a period of time between the nineties and mid 2000s when ubiquitous and fast internet access wasn't easily accessible, and so games like Myst and Riven had the space and time to be digested and savoured. Now it seems this just isn't feasible anymore. There are of course games in the same category, e.g. Outer Wilds and The Witness, but these have much more concessions to the internet age
Today, people want progress, and if they are stuck, they want to know exactly where. The sense of anxiety created by totally open confusion is not acceptable. For me, personally, that's the moment I open a walkthrough: for example, the moment I feel like I missed something important and I have no idea where.
Riven is a series of paintings, Outer Wilds is a beautiful and serene real time fully simulated solar system. I think that is a concession the poster was referring to: Outer Wilds has to have a wow factor in order to make it okay to be lost and confused. If Outer Wilds was a series of static images, people would not persevere.
I actually only played a few hours of Outer Wilds and decided to watch others (and particularly Thor) finish it instead because I'm bad at flying the ship and I found it too frustrating to die unsure whether I was bad at it or what I was attempting is impossible.
But I know I'm weird, I think the Penn & Teller things where they explain the trick are the best, clearly Penn himself doesn't agree because you won't see too much of that in their newer work. My favourite bit of Portal 2 was playing with commentary on just before "The Part Where He Kills You" where there's a frantic portal fling and in testing they realised it's not fun if the player accidentally flings the wrong portal. Like, sure, if you actually did that you die, but so what? So - if you hit the wrong button you get the correct portal anyway, as a special exception to the game's rules. So yeah, I'm weird, I like to understand how it works.
Outer Wilds (less so the DLC) has a lot of opportunity for you to completely misunderstand and I think it's actually overall nice that the game doesn't finish by insisting on correcting you. You can keep believing whatever it is, and maybe you eventually realise you were wrong or maybe not. Life's like that.
SPOILERS - Stop reading if you haven't played Outer Wilds and think you might
It's very possible to "win" Outer Wilds not understanding why the visitors died. Maybe you never visit the asteroid, maybe you don't understand what's happening there and never go inside, maybe you see what happened but never understand it. This is especially likely if you haven't noticed that they're clearly right in the middle of everything, they actually have just discovered the Sun Station doesn't work at the time!
If you understood why they died, it's even more possible to not see why Hearthians were spared. Video game protagonists are used to miracles that save them, but your whole species is here and yet other species were annihilated in seconds. Was it so long ago? Well, yes and no. It was a long time ago, but your ancestors were amphibians and like radiation the death is abated by water's density so that's why you're here.
It's also really possible to not "get" how the "Quantum" rules work. To "win" you don't need to actually go meet the last "living" alien although ideally you will, and so you don't need to grok the rules well enough to go there. So you can get to the "end" of the game without ever really knowing why the weird rocks move or that there's a coherent explanation for how and why they do that.
Ooh, edited to add the biggest I forgot - it's easy to not realise this game takes place at the End Of The Universe. The stars are dying! Unrealistically quickly, but that's what's happening. You aren't seeing more supernovas just as a hint (although it is a hint) or because of where this happens, but because everywhere the stars are dying.
Riven manifests these discoveries as changes to world state stored in computer memory, whereas The Witness manifests them as an acquired skill residing in the player's brain.
What about all of the puzzles that use the environment? There are all sorts of challenges that use the island/features. Really enjoyed that game. Good sense of progression and learning without teaching.
I was trying to find all the answers. Afaik, you had some way of knowing how many puzzles were remaining? Eh, both great games. Myst and Riven definitely have more of the "if you can't solve this you're stuck" vibe, I'd agree.
Pixel hunting and moon logic puzzles where you're more or less expected to brute force the puzzle and groan at the answer (e.g. the infamous monkey wrench); that shit was never fun. It ended up in games because the genre was still immature and game designers didn't know better.
Modern adventure games are much better at ensuring that the key is never far from the lock... for the simple reason that softlocking because you didn't pick up a single pixel that was an important rock 4 hours ago isn't fun, and neither is backtracking across the entire game to talk to the pigeon you missed because it only briefly flies past in the background once every 4 minutes.
Definitely the game opens up and becomes more deep/mysterious than I thought it would get, super cool.
But I must agree with you, the ship has sailed with this kind of game. You can of course go back and enjoy it but you do so with the knowledge that you can be doing other things that feel as meaningful but without the feeling of frustration.
Another similar example are MMOs. When I was a kid, my dad and I were really into Star Wars Galaxies. Well, people made emulation projects to go back and play it, but it's just not the same for various reasons. I feel the same way with World of Warcraft. It is almost more stark than Riven, because you not only miss the word of mouth and lack of easy "cheating" aspects, but you also feel the distinct lack of open socialising in modern online gameplay.
A good example of the opposite would be old Nintendo games. Super Mario Bros 3 is still one of the best 2D Mario games of all time, and in no sense when playing it do you feel compelled towards a modern experience.
I will say I had nearly as much of a good time with those two games as with Riven. For all three, I had this sinking feeling while playing "I will rarely find works as lovely as these in my life".
One that stood out to me is "Odyssey - The Story of Science", which is a Myst-like with focus on teaching basics of math and physics through its puzzles.
It was not too bad, but my memory of Riven is so much stronger. Maybe I should replay it instead, just to walk through this beautiful world again, even without solving all the puzzles (the puzzles are IMO not why you play it). Riven evoked this constant feeling of wonder with the sounds and short cut-scenes adding a lot to the atmosphere.
There was this place where you walk down towards the water with a beast sitting there in the sun, and that scene almost has a smell to it. Or maybe my memory is colouring it all rosy now.
the recent myst remake is probably the pinnacle of them... that said the original is well worth playing still and i've played it through a few times now.
I tried it, and it plays atrociously. Extremely inconsistent FPS, sound choppy and cutting off during movement as new assets are loaded, graphical glitches, just horrible. I refunded it pretty quickly.
There was definitely something appealing in these lower-resolution rendered graphics for the way they hid the imperfections of computer graphics and conveyed more detail than was actually present. In a way our minds filled the gaps.
A good example of this are the trees in Myst in this image (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E9ZtXtFXE84/maxresdefault.jpg). They're just textured cones with a central cylinder, but as composed they look far more richly detailed.
Not even close to accurate
I’d say that dragons dogma is in the same vein as Riven and does fairly well.
Immortality and The Signifier are both solid games where most of the enjoyment is interpreting the world.
They aren't hypercard-esque puzzle games like Myst and Riven, but what they share in common is that the enjoyment of the game is figuring out the somewhat ambiguous world major beats occur in the negative space of what you are explicitly shown and told.
The former has sort of Lynchian undertones that slowly emerge over the course of the game, and the latter benefits from at least a cursory understanding of Freud and/or semiotics.
Not having Internet really makes my experience better with games. I wish I had the discipline to just not reach for a Wiki.
I still remember swapping out those CDs every time I switched islands. The entire experience was utterly captivating as an 13yearold.
You reminded me that when the CD drive kicked out the disc for the first time and asked for the next, you knew that you had broken through and that some new shit was about to land.
This game kickstarted my interest in computer graphics. Got a “making of” book and was fascinated by how they did the textures.
Regrettably, Riven still wouldn't run, as it required display hardware that could display thousands-of-colors. Bummer.
With a new PC many years later, I finally played it. It was one of those experiences where I wish I could forget it, so I could play it again. I tried again decades later, (after having played and loved all the other Myst games; IV was my favorite; outstanding atmosphere and scope; especially the starting and starry worlds). Regrettably, I still remembered how to solve almost every puzzle, and remembered the map layouts in detail. However, I remembered absolutely none of the plot of dialog!
(The latest Myst re-releases are worth a play through too, as is Obduction. My favorites are still Riven and Myst IV though!)
Myst is an exception which is probably a testament to how impactful it was to 11 year old me, but I’ve played Riven twice and I could barely tell you what it is about. If I play it again, I’ll start getting my memory jogged and it won’t completely be like starting from scratch but pretty close to it.
Dementia runs in my family so I am always paranoid about lapses in my memory (I’m 40). When I talk to others I don’t seem to be alone.
Which one of us is the norm?
As the digital antiquarian is happy to point out, most of the Sierra adventures were poor games, but few were sterile. And the Infocom games were almost overflowing with life.
( While I was "stuck" on an old 386 with only a floppy drive for what felt like an eternity. )
Not enough can be said about the quality of the writing and worldbuilding in the universe. It's as pity that the format died around the game.
I feel they're still putting out stuff that's just as good, it's just the market has moved on.
The one before that, Obduction, was pretty great. I really loved it.
It never died. It just got buried under the rubble of “AAA” games.
Actually, I did phone the super mario 64 help hotline as I was missing level 10. 60p a minute!
Aha, snowman’s land! Jump through the wall that has the snowman portrait reflected in the mirror. Blew my mind as a 10 year old
Of all the 4 games (yes 4, I refuse to acknowledge the last entry) it is definitely the most difficult. I had to wait for it to come out on GoG and replay it as an adult to finish it.
You'd need AGI.
Standard procedural generation, even the most advanced versions, aren't any good at consistently making interesting things. Procedural generation is only good for making things that probably haven't been seen before, and the vast majority of what gets spit out via procedural generation will be bland and uninteresting.
In other words, there's a reason that 99% of any given Dwarf Fortress world's legends mode will be mind-dullingly boring, and a reason why Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has an autoexplore key.
But if you're willing to tolerate somewhat-bland open-ended procedural murder mysteries in a highly simulated film-noir setting, check out Shadows Of Doubt.
A game that fits between 'hard puzzles' and 'action' and will always have a new puzzle available to me might be really nice.
(I am not certain of this enough to buy it -yet- but I'm now definitely considering it)
https://darkcephas.blogspot.com/2018/03/twenty-years-later-o...
Since I'm a cynic in general:
> Cyan was likewise disinterested in pursuing other solutions that would have been even easier to implement than panning rotation, but that could have made their game less awkward to play...
I disagree with this paragraph.
I think back then, I thought this was intentionally helpful. Thinking on it now, I also think it was part of the character of Myst that would be too risky to lose for Riven.
Riven is being remade in 3D with full 3D movement right now by Cyan!
It's... weird to visit, though, because they're like the high school quarterbacks we all know. They had some great years when they were younger, but they're continuously trying to relive those glory days while yelling from the bar stool about that one time they threw the game winning pass. Most of their cash comes from remakes or ports of Myst/Riven, and half the time they aren't even the ones making the damn ports (third parties have paid them for the rights to do it, if you buy Myst on GoG then you got a version that was ported by GoG themselves).
They recently put out Obduction, which on paper seems to be a commercial failure (though I haven't sold seven figures worth of games so who am I to say), raking in like $5M total. Saving the fact that there are just a handful of dudes left at the studio... I don't know, it feels like the oft referenced online version of Cyan (which again, is 30 years old now) and their current reality are completely divergent.
I have some nostalgia for getting trapped in a book in Myst and feeling that fury, but I also struggle to see how they're relevant in today's gaming landscape. It feels like if Super Mario Bros was a one hit wonder, would we still be getting this pumped about crushing turtles three decades later?
There are almost no Bethesdas/Blizzards/etc that continue releasing hits for decades at a time.
I was a big Diablo 2 fiend, it was one of my formative online games. So a few years ago there are rumblings about D2 Remastered, and I'm obviously pumped. Come launch day, Blizzard has my money and I'm deep into the thing I used to love, but it's just... meh. There was a time and place that made the original D2 fantastic, but it turns out that's not here and now. I feel the same thing for Myst/Riven, they were SO GOOD but who actually gives a shit about doing the same thing again with better graphics?
I can't write off the fact that those dudes made a few great games, and that's a crazy accomplishment. I think Myst is the first "real" PC game my family ever bought, and I still remember my mom staying up late at night to click around the world and figure out what the hell was happening. She wrote notes on those yellow legal pads, reminding her of lore and other important shit. But the lightning in a bottle thing works both ways, and that lightning is basically static electricity in todays world :P To borrow your example, id software didn't release the same version of DOOM 30 years later, we got DOOM Eternal. It's not a reskin of their (by today's standards) shitty game, it's a whole new experience that's a damned (hah) blast to play. That's not what's happening with Myst/Riven, unfortunately, but I'd love to see that level of innovation come out of the studio that was once great.
Anyway I do empathise - my favorite games are fallout and fallout 2 and I was looking forward to Bethesda’s sequels but I never manage to stick to any of them for more than a couple hours, it just doesn’t feel like fallout to me - and I think a big part of it is because I’m not longer 14 years old playing a new game (with very little other commitments on my time and attention).
But you're on the same page as me, there was a time and place for these FANTASTIC games, but that's in the past. And it feels kind of silly to watch them push the same games onto new platforms in a futile attempt to stay relevant (and cash the nostalgia checks, even when players end up NOT feeling the same things as the OG release).
Part of why I didn't like D2 again is exactly what you said, I'm not a teenager with endless time to spend online gaming. But another huge part is that I've been there and done that, and a nicer, newer version of that fun just doesn't hold a candle to the fun I had years ago when it was fresh. I'm saying the same holds true for Myst/Riven, release it on my smart fridge for all I care, it's not the same :D
Ultimately they’re getting money from players (not investors), so the test of “is there a reason to remake the old games” is ultimately if people are buying them (and I wonder how many of them haven’t played the originals? Considering they came out almost 30 years ago).
In 2016 I was very impressed by the advances in VR, and so I spent thousands on a gaming PC and HTC Vive and the VR edition of Fallout 4. But one hour into the game it was clear that the magic just wasn’t there. I had this expensive setup to put me directly inside the world I enjoyed as a teen, but it was totally “uncanny valley.” The overwrought game design had lost the mystery, and the 3D VR rendering just made everything look cheap and fake. Engaging the player’s imagination is a delicate balance.
Maybe their style is progressive rock and they had one hit that still plays enough to keep the royalties flowing [1]. Decades later, audiences have mostly forgotten about prog rock, but does that mean the band should abandon what they know and enjoy, just to maybe try making a Rihanna-inspired album instead? Nobody wants that either.
It sounds like a chill lifestyle to be honest, doing what you love on your own pace, sometimes delivering something new to a dwindling but dedicated audience. Degrowth is anathema to start-up culture but it might be good for the aging human mind.
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[1] A lot of people who have never actively listened to prog rock could hum “Eye in the Sky…”
But at the same time, Norman Greenbaum doesn't release a new version of Spirit in the Sky every few years expecting to get a pat on the head. In fact, that'd be an insane choice to make. Cyan is making their new albums, but they're also releasing Myst[club-remix].mp3 and Riven[feat-shiny-bs].mp3 on a regular schedule, and part of you has to wonder when it's ok to embrace the one hit and maybe quit beating the dead horse (apparently there's money in the horse, instead of organs and horse meat, so they CAN beat it but why?)
Let’s take somebody I actually really respect, the Pet Shop Boys. (They’re practically a one-hit wonder in America but had numerous hit records in Europe.)
Within the past month, PSB has released a new album “Nonetheless” to favorable reviews, but they also released an EP called “Furthermore” with completely new recordings of some of their best-known hits. Recently they also collaborated with British post-punk group Sleaford Mods on a cover and remix of “West End Girls.”
There’s an audience who enjoys all this. Why shouldn’t they both put out new material and work with others to rejuvenate the old? For someone who never liked their brand of melancholy synthpop, it’s beating a dead horse. For the fans, it’s keeping alive something that deserves it.
But should they?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3MTlJF2qqM
( FWiW I'm all for grandparents making kids uncomfortable )
Personally I think that if Nintendo eschewed new games, and kept releasing the original Super Mario Brothers (a beloved game from almost four decades ago) bit-for-bit on other devices, maybe with better graphics, they'd be irrelevant idiots today. Sure, there's SOME market for that, but what's much cooler is making new stuff that holds up in the current year. Nostalgia is a powerful tool, but porting code from 30 years ago to my smart fridge with upgraded graphics is a poor use of it (this is barely hyperbole for the franchise, which says a lot).
That all being said, I know the Cyan offices haven't collapsed into rubble so they're still doing OK (though their workforce is TINY now, compared to 'back when'). And if that's what floats their boat, great. I'd rather suck start my shotgun than release the same software for 30 years (same as in verbatim, no less, someone else is porting it to modern stacks) but to each their own...
But they do that all the time. New Super Mario Bros had like 5 different releases across multiple platforms with little to no changes. Hell, the entire SMB lineup is basically the same game with a new gimmick and fresh graphics tacked on every release.
Lots and lots of musicians play all their 20yo hit records every concert. It’s expected, not “beating the dead horse”. I don’t see how this is all that different.
Now THAT I thought was a strange choice... Alan Parsons Project for a bombastic sports-stadium entrance.
It was actually quite fun, even though I had to compile from source to play on an outdated office server :)
They recently released Firmament which was successfully backed on Kickstarter. (I'm eyeing my boxed copy on my shelf right now.) I'm partway into it, so I can't yet say if it's better than Obduction, but it has been an excellent experience so far
I don't think it's fair to slam Cyan for being so proud of Myst and talking about it all the time. It was one of the most influential and successful video games. It got kids into technology, puzzles, and sci-fi. Myst is not merely remembered. It is still an ongoing franchise with an active fanbase. Why do they need "hits" when they are still a successful company?
Just heard about Firmament, I guess we have another game to add the the "Winter Doldrums" playlist.
It's at least 25 years since I first played it now and I'm always pumped to replay it.
So ... maybe not Super Mario, but still.
PS - Ever read the books? :)
The author is David Wingrove, whose incredible world building is on display in his Chung Kuo series. Also highly recommended: a future where China has dominated all the continents. Originally 8 books, now 20 due to books splits and additional writing.
Only complaint is he could have used an editor. Sometimes his writing could have used some corrections or better wording.
But the stories are great.
As for the stories themselves, the world building and atmosphere are fantastic. As a teenager/young adult, they captivated me in a way that very few books could. I continued to read them about once a year up into my early thirties. And I never played the game!
Worth a read in my opinion.
I keep seeing comments like this on this thread: people who like the game or what it produced (it whatever) without even playing. It’s like me liking all things Alice in Wonderland without ever reading the books. Even though I have them in hot pink hardcover.
*not to be confused with the 2000 Masterpiece Edition, the 2000 remake RealMyst or the 2014 remake realMyst: Masterpiece Edition.
There was a long-running fan project called "Starry Expanse", aiming to recreate Riven in 3D. They got acquired(?) by Cyan a couple years back and their work got incorporated into the official Riven remake, which is supposed to come out sometime later this year.
Side note: I played obduction a while back and it looked great, but the PlayStation fans were going nonstop
Riven added a lot more world building and that lore took away the mystery and isolation that gave the original its ambiance.
As someone who regularly despaired over the original, I'm very interested and curious.
It has VR support
I know that there was the Starry Expanse project, but I think it was too piecemeal, and disjointed. I think Cyan had to do it.
I believe Myst, Riven, and Obduction all have VR versions now. Myst works standalone on Quest.
When they did try something more "normal" - the multiplayer online URU, a kind of Myst meets second life meets early social network, it wasn't a commercial success.
I was an ultra-tourist. I just bought the game and a cheat book and blew through it with my mom in the fashion of watching a movie.
Because that is about as much time as I want to sink into any escapist stuff.
The other point is that I truly admire anyone ejecting at the top of their game, rather than and endless stream of weaker derivatives.
Maybe this is an odd request. I find that LP’s of games like this that I never finished as a kid work better than some expert playing it for the 12th time.
I agree it's tricky to find the balance of a truly blind playthrough, sans hints, and one that's also enjoyable to watch because the inferences are made reasonably quickly.
I re-played on the Nintendo Switch, and it was again amazing (I managed to finish it this time).
Never played any of the sequels, so I hope Riven makes it to Switch too
I never got around to playing Riven, but I plan to as an adult and have been waiting for a proper remake with updated graphics and such and it seems we are finally close to that reality.