Commuter train window cleaning conundrum in NJ | Hacker News Reader

Commuter train window cleaning conundrum in NJ

nj.com

44 pointssavrajsingh40 comments

It’s crazy that one of the largest commuter rail systems in a state with some of the highest taxes cannot just spend $8 million to replace the windows. I’m sure an audit of contracts or overtime payments could quickly find some extra money.

At less than $20k per car, that doesn't even seem particularly expensive. This is a fairly basic maintenance item.

> ”crazy that one of the largest commuter rail systems in a state with some of the highest taxes cannot just spend $8 million to replace the windows.”

Presumably they don’t want to replace faulty windows with more faulty windows that will just develop the same issue again over time.

And it won’t be just be a case of going out and ordering different windows: train parts have to be carefully tested, certified etc to meet safety regulations.

In terms of the state subsidy, NJ Transit doesn't have a permanent dedicated source of funding in the state budget.

It's a really messed-up situation. The governor prefers to waste billions of dollars on an unnecessary turnpike extension widening project, instead of funding public transit.

I took a commuter train in NJ earlier this year and i was shocked at the windows. Seriously, every other train system in the world can pull off clean windows but not New Jersey? India? Clean windows. China? Clean windows... You can't blame pollution... you can't blame regulation because they've got tons of that in Norway and Japan and they're able to keep their windows clean.

If only “every other” were true. LIRR, NYC: same problem. Metra, Chicago: same problem.

So basically, the United States is incompetent and every other country in the world isn’t. Got it.

That’s a ridiculous takeaway. It seems like you’re looking for hyperbole or otherwise have a bone to pick.

I mean literally the commenter listed out places all over the world with a tiny fraction of the resources that don’t have these types of problems and the counter examples are all American cities, it is no secret that US public transit is consistently worse than those practically anywhere else regardless of how proud those people may be.

The windows have to comply with the safety standards. Do countries like Indian and China have the same safety standards?

Literally “the same”, no, but look at the track records of literally any country and you’ll find that they remain far safer (and in China’s case, orders of magnitude) more reliable and safe than whatever train wreck is going on in the USA.

(Believe the statistics or not, comparing the antique, hardly used, minuscule network of the USA to the state of the art, enormous, and insanely heavily utilized Chinese railways is pretty hilarious hubris for Americans, and I’m speaking as one—who left the country, though)

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2011/06/02/comparative-ra...

It’s not an issue with dirt on the windows, but rather etching/clouding of the window glass which makes it appear dirty.

It’s certainly not unique to NJ: it happens on a lot of older trains in Europe, but I’ve never seen it so bad as in the NJ photos.

I guess something about the coating they use on the glass (to improve safety, insulation, etc) makes it vulnerable to clouding and scratching over time. Climate, air pollution, and/or cleaning techniques used over the years may have contributed to the issue?

The older single level Comet cars don't have this problem nor does the light rail. Seems the solution is to replace with a longer lasting window material which is already known to work.

That material is glass. However... replacing panes with glass isn't a straight swap of one material for another. The glass has to be protected around the edges, it can't be drilled for screw holes, etc. The re-design involves not just the window material but the window system.

From the end of the story:

"Metro-North Railroad and NJ Transit use a single pane of polycarbonate glazing almost a half inch thick, according to the Federal Railroad Administration.

"NJ Transit isn’t alone in this problem.

"“The south side of the (Long Island Rail Road) M-7 fleet of 830 cars is also opaque,” Versaggi said."

LIRR trains run predominately east-west routes, and (I assume from this comment) apparently do not turn round at the termini.

It does not quite say that the affected LIRR trains also use polycarbonate windows, but it seems likely that they do, and that the cause of the opacity is sunlight damage to polycarbonate, or some plasticizer or other minor component of the windows. It is well-known that polycarbonates absorbs UV, and that energy has to go somewhere...

Right, LIRR trains don't turn around at any terminus, so the same side is always the south side. I think the only balloon loop in the system capable of turning a train is at Sunnyside Yard, but that's a maintenance/storage facility and not really a terminus; it turns Amtrak trains but never LIRR. There is a wye capable of turning an engine but not a full-length train at the ends of the Montauk and Port Jefferson branches, and perhaps others.

The windows are not glass, they are 1/2" polycarbonate, per the article, which is easily scratched and susceptible to UV damage. That is the problem. They could likely be polished but then they need to retest the windows for safety compliance.

> not being able to see which station the train is at, especially if no announcement is made

Wait, they're admitting they know this is a problem? It's such a pain having inaudible announcements or none at all. Is it really so hard to get on the PA for each stop? Then why not have it automated? Or an overhead sign in the car showing eta and name of next station? Ideally both.

>Or an overhead sign in the car showing eta and name of next station?

I believe the cars (definitely the newer ones) have exactly that. It seems like an odd complaint to me, but it's totally possible NJ Transit moved older cars that don't have this feature from more heavily trafficked lines to lines that don't have as much traffic.

Every car I've been on has about a dozen characters' worth of space. It's very easy to miss a visual announcement on those - I've missed my stop a few times, though I freely acknowledge that it's due to me not paying attention.

I hate PA systems, especially if they are not automated and some poor drone mumbles the announcement 500 times per day. Give me digital signage every time.

They chose polycarbonate plastic over glass but it suffers from the elements more than glass.

On the other hand, it's far harder to break than glass, which is important for equipment that will be subjected to vandals.

why would vandalism be more of an issue for trains than cars?

Because more people will see them and they’re kind of iconic, so they’re a fun target for graffiti. People don’t really vandalize other people’s personal cars unless they have a grudge or they’re trying to break in to steal something. It’s kind of a jerk move.

They’re also parked overnight in more remote areas than most cars. In fairness if you parked your car in an industrial area near a train yard overnight it’s probably more likely to get broken into than on a residential street.

It doesn’t matter which is a bigger target, it’s whether trains are a target at all. Vandalism definitely impacts cars; there are lots of issues with broken glass in cities around the world. Sometimes from a random person just smashing every car on the block, or for theft.

But trains are definitely a big target, given you’ll find them all sitting outside overnight in a remote lot which might not be protected very well.

Vandalism is only an issue at all because the US is allergic to enforcing “broken windows” laws

I found an article that quoted people at the Chicago commuter rail system (Metra) saying that their rail cars should get a major rehab (which includes new windows) every 14 years.

Looking at Wikipedia, the NJ Transit rail cars with the affected windows would have started hitting 14 years old (they were getting 10 delivered per month for a few years) right as the Covid-19 pandemic started shutting everything down.

This is most likely just bad timing, and because of budget issues, supply chain problems, lack of maintenance capacity, etc. - something that they haven’t fully recovered from.

(Just a guess)

So what is this proposed Rutgers solution? That seems like the key point of HN interest!

> Metro-North Railroad and NJ Transit use a single pane of polycarbonate glazing almost a half inch thick.

That's exactly what you'd expect from half an inch of uncoated polycarbonate. Resists rocks and small arms fire, can be pressure washed to remove graffiti, but will scuff.

There are a few ways around that, but they all add cost.

Would buffing with a fine polishing compound be unacceptable in terms of strength? Presumably this is a surface effect?

Since this is polycarbonate can’t it be just buffed, like the car headlight cleaning products do, using a very fine sandpaper?

It’ll just take a thin layer off and can then be polished.

It should cost less than replacing, I think..

Reading the article it sounded like this was a job for those ceramic coatings they sell to fix this same problem on car headlights. It will be a lot of hours of buffing and applying coats of sealant to fix this, but compared to the cost of replacing the windows it seems like a bargain.

As a frequent user of the trains from NJ transit, I can attest to the fact that you can literally not see out of most of the windows

What about polycarbonate fronted by a thin sheet of glass with some sort of UV blocking? Or are these windows actually getting hit with stuff so often that wouldn’t be viable?

You can see just fine out of Metro North windows, which are apparently the same half-inch of polycarbonate glazing. So what’s the difference? Does Metro North replace the windows more frequently?

Likely due to less sun exposure -- either at their train yards, or the orientation of their lines being more north/south than east/west.

Also, Metro-North's two west-of-Hudson lines (which are co-branded/shared with NJ Transit, in terms of tracks and rolling stock) do have this same problem.

https://archive.ph/kzrqa

UV exposure can certainly cause this, but what about their train washing systems? They commonly have large rotating plastic brushes and if grit gets caught up in the brush it's going to sand anything with a lower Mohs hardness.

Los Angeles Metro wash system - note that they use glass and don't have this problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1JxVOzAz6E

We are all looking at our phones anyway

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