Dell leak details next-gen Windows on Arm chips | Hacker News Reader

Dell leak details next-gen Windows on Arm chips

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41 pointsgripfx60 comments

Oh Dell, Windows and Qualcomm. I’d rather cut my hands off and shove the bloody stumps in a bag of salt. Have had nothing but trouble with all of them over the years.

I will not buy an device with ARM running Microsoft Windows. Ship it with Linux or we ignore it like the other devices with ARM. Windows isn’t built for ARM and the closed-source software isn’t running well or slowly on ARM. The reason to use Windows is that nothing changes and legacy software from 1988 runs like on MS-DOS.

What did Qualcomm think when they signed a monopoly deal with Microsoft? That they will benefit from this legally questionable action? Microsoft exploited hardware manufactures to spread their bad software in the 90ies and only Microsoft did win.

Ship it with Linux and target an initial a small but welcoming market. If you want just a cheap device with ARM for browsing only, Chromebook (next monopoly by Google…).

Yea, lets start with tiny userbase of vocal nerds who cant even agree on how to do gui / package management

instead of the OS with majority of market share and giant userbase

90s are over, it is time to move on and stop EEEing everywhere

That’s not correct and the Steamdeck proofs it :)

The manufacturers are always the key. What ships pre-installed and/or runs well after setup matters. Thats why ThinkPads run so well with Linux. ThinkPads are certified for Linux or even ship readily with Fedora or Ubuntu.

That I’m using Arch and using mostly the TTY isn’t an issue. It doesn’t matter that the next user prefers GNOME and Fedora. Because we’ve settled for compatibility and not incompatibility through Windows or MacOS. The rest is just our personal choice. How cares if we run SysVInit or Systemd? Only the user.

PS: Applies also to Dells Developer Edition Laptops.

[flagged]

For what it's worth, they are in fact targeting Linux support: https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-...

It's no longer 2012. Windows has progressed much since RT. I have a Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 device running Windows 11, and I'm really impressed with how well it operates, how long the battery lasts, and how well it emulates practically any 64-bit software I've tested. This is coming from someone who hates Windows 11. The majority of the software I use has been or will be complied for ARM eventually.

Wouldn't consumer Linux running on an ARM core just be a Chromebook?

Get a chromebook.

I agree this is a prime moment for Linux on the desktop to shine, but so has the last 10 years of windows destroying its UI and backwards compatibility.

...I have no faith.

> ...I have no faith.

You don't need faith, you just need to look around: It's already shining!

Support for Linux in consumer software applications and devices has improved a huge amount over just the past few years. Using a Linux desktop in 2024 is not a second class experience at all anymore.

Sure the userbase is still quite small relative to Windows and MacOS, but in absolute numbers it's still a huge population of users, and it's also growing very fast. That combined with the fact that supporting Linux is typically quite easy means that more and more vendors are supporting it, which is creating a positive feedback loop by enticing more users.

No need for pessimism here.

I daily drive mint and Linux distros for 25 years now.

I'm avoiding Wayland and whatever rewrite of gnome/kde is underway. Not to mention snaps are noxious and counterintuitive to user applications. At least flatpaks are easily jail broken / repermissioned with flat seal easily.

Upgrading breaks way too often. At least the 32/64 bit migration has occurred. About 80% of the time I've simply needed to reinstall the OS on major upgrades.

The killer app of Linux desktop migration, WINE, is still a crap shoot, although I use it for a lot of retro gaming, but even WinRAR or other common utils are hit and miss.

Hardware support (amd integrated graphics especially) drags.

Portables still are worse at powermgmt last I checked.

A lot of this is only marginally better (or for the rewrites, actually worse, and snaps are worse) over the last decade as ms shot itself in the foot.

Cursing windows is a classic fashion. Come on, be happy that the os exits and maintained.

YMMV. I have always had extremely pleasant, hassle-free, and fast support and warranty from Dell. It's not that their monitors or laptops fail more often, I've just been buying them for a decade.

All the hardware I’ve had from Dell has fallen to pieces (with the exception of the first one: a 320LX from ’85[1]) but they’ve been helpful in trying to shore up the inevitable at least.

[1] https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/54920/Dell-320LX/

As someone who has had literally thousands of Dells: fuck Dell with a rake.

Second only on the chart of “companies to never buy from” to HP.

Yep. My second Dell laptop had the screen hinge break, because they anchor the damned things in plastic, and the screen case is rarely rigid. Google "Dell laptop hinge issue" and see how many results you get, and how far back they go. At least 15 years.

There's no reasonable explanation aside from planned obsolescence.

4x dead $4000 machines in 2 years and then they leaked my personal details and downplayed it. They can get fucked.

Same here. Amazing service.

Modem standby 0.3W?? I don't think CPU change alone will make these devices super-efficient.

And why is web browsing such a battery sink? Are they using an old version of edge? Is it full of random extensions??

By the way, 15 minutes into a thread about CPUs and discussion has not yet been hijacked by the fans of "that other company". Maybe HN is improving?

What are some good long battery life Windows laptops currently on market? I wouldn't need 20 hours (like macbooks have), but I'd like to get an entire work day without charging and my current experience with Windows laptops is that they last maybe 3-4 hours. Though I've also only owned mid-tier devices, so maybe that is only exclusive to top tier, not sure.

Most of the official battery life numbers you see from manufacturers are like 18 hours when the reality is less than 8 hours which is just meaningless. The numbers from reviewers using benchmarks like "modern office" might not be applicable to you, but should be relatively accurate. I would advise checking some reviews and reddit posts to see what people say.

Also note that this heavily depends on the CPU and screen configuration (LED or OLED).

One data point here: My laptop with an AMD 7840U with FHD+ IPS screen could last 9 hours in my own testing, that's without video calls or heavy multitasking. It's a ThinkPad but there are a few on the market with the same APU. A similar test on an Asus laptop with i5-1240p high-res OLED would yield 5 hours using the same method.

I know, it's annoying that there is no easy way to get a somewhat realistic estimate of the battery life on Windows laptops, while official Macbook battery life in the specs is reasonable and often accurate. Generally, you would want to get a low voltage CPU and avoid OLED screens if you want good battery life.

I had have 18hrs windows RT laptops, but those were otherwise useless.

A newer Microsoft surface gives you 13-16 hours depending on the model and HP, Dell and Lenovo have slim-ish laptopts in the 11-14 hrs range

I recently got a Framework 13 laptop and 10 hours on a charge is easily doable, especially if you put it in the low power mode. That's on Linux, but I'd assume Windows is typically smarter about conserving battery life (though maybe that's changed nowadays).

I'm incredibly happy with this laptop in general.

https://www.rtings.com/laptop/tools/table/137729

Look for devices with the Intel Core Ultra processor family. They’re the first Intel chips that have caught up with the M1/M2/M3 family on performance per watt.

a Lenovo Yoga Slim with a Ryzen 7840u lasts for 8-10 hours with Wifi enabled, browsing, Slack, and a text editor, with the screen brightness at around 30-40% - good enough for indoors.

LG Gram

The thing is, the previous version of Edge (before it became a re-badged Google Chrome) was quite notable for being easier on battery life, and that was marketed as an advantage for it, one which seemed to be the case in my experience.

I wish it would come back, or that there was some other web browser option for Windows (guess I should try Firefox again).

Most probably this will be Microsoft's response to Chromebooks in the classroom. Same concept but integrated with Microsoft Office, Outlook and whatever, something many schools are using on their Chromebooks already.

The entire shtick of Windows is it's userbase and app library on x86. Porting your app to Android tablets makes more sense than porting to Windows on ARM, and developing a PWA web app makes more sense than that. Power-user apps (including games) will definitely stay on Windows x86 for now, with Linux x86 being it's primary alternative.

This product will likely be for users who just use a web browser and want integration with Microsoft services with that, so mainly the educational field.

The cpu is in the same price bracket as Intel i5/i7. WOA runs all(except the ones that ship drivers like rootkits and drm) x86/64bit software.

I can also see sales people.

I know from a friend who worked at Brex that said they offered Chromebooks for people who just needed a web browser. That was mostly sales and support staff like HR.

If it can't run Linux or the *BSDs, it's a closed device no different than a cell phone.

Qualcomm posted an article to their blog recently about their efforts to upstream support for their processor to the Linux kernel: https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-...

Only time will tell how good the support is, but it's at least a start.

That is great news, and very encouraging! Of course the bootloader / boot process has to be able to be modified as well; we'll see how good/bad Dell does with that.

Here's what they say about the boot process in the blog post:

> The boot stack on Snapdragon X Elite supports standard UEFI-based boot. Linux boots up using devicetrees, and all standard bootloaders, including Grub and system-d boot, should just work out of the box. We use Grub to boot into Debian, and to dual-boot Windows and Debian.

> We’re working closely with upstream communities on an open problem with the UEFI-based BIOS while booting with devicetrees. The problem is that, when you have more than one devicetree blob (DTB) packed into the firmware package flashed on the device, there is no standard way of selecting a devicetree to pass on to the kernel. OEMs commonly put multiple DTBs into the firmware package so it will support devices with slightly different SKUs, so we’re keen to solve this problem. (See the Embedded Open Source Summit presentation on this topic by my colleague Elliot Berman. Links below.)

I pray for a Linux on a Dell XPS 13 with the battery duration of a MacBook Air 13/14" (and solid, without a fan). I Don't care too much about the raw power but something that doesn't feel slow.

We really are doing this "AI PC" thing I guess?

I was really hoping we would just... not. Not looking forward to those ads being all over showing gimmick that most probably don't want. Hopefully we don't start seeing "AI PC Ready" parts for custom builds.

Hopefully the LTSC version of Windows 11 doesn't have any of this crap in it.

Also great, so the hardware will be fine. Still not convinced Microsoft can pull off ARM in any meaningful way compared to Apple. I highly doubt the entire PC market will switch over anytime soon unlike Mac.

The only mass market ai application for the end user is probably deep fakes.

Dell will put almost anything but Ryzens in their laptops.

How many options are there? Intel, AMD, now Qualcomm ... I guess you could count whatever they put in their chromebooks (if they still make those) but those are sorta specific situations.

Is almost anything all of 2 other options?

>Dell is planning to refresh its XPS 13 Plus from 2022, with a touch bar on the top row of the keyboard and only two USB-C ports for I/O.

If I wanted a Macbook I would get a Macbook instead of some frankenstein knockoff that can't run neither Win32 nor Mac.

The XPS line has for a long time been Dells thin + performance laptops. If that's not what you want... I don't know why you'd be considering that line.

What part of thin and performance demands only 2 USB ports?

I have an M2 Macbook Air. The damn thing can fit a dozen USB ports on both sides, as far as physical space is concerned. I like its speakers and battery life, but I hate the lack of connectivity.

I really don't care about "demands". You could ask someone who knows more about the physical laptop design. That's not me.

It seems strange to take issue with Dell's showboat ultrabook, for being an ultrabook, when for years (maybe longer) it has been an ultrabook with all the trade offs that come with it. Pick a different line of laptops.

Carrying around hubs and dongles defeats the very point of using a thin (read: portable) laptop. Most Windows "ultrabook" laptops have more than the Apple Certified Standard(tm) complement of connectivity. I'm using one right now, a 14" ASUS Vivobook, which has four USB ports (I wish it had more) and an HDMI port.

Adding more USB ports does not compromise the ultrabookness of a laptop. Ever. Ultrabooking is about portability, not about no motherfucking connections without motherfucking dongles.

So why would you even look at the XPS line?

So buy the computer you want. There's a glut of different options out there. No point in getting upset when a company makes something that isn't for you.

Maybe one of those projects that get delayed so much that, when it finally ships, the industry (Apple) has moved to another direction.

And it’s not like Apple is a fast moving target is that regard. It took them a long time to fix the MacBook Pro and they did a number of years ago.

Mac and Win32 aren't operating systems.

Of course not, they are APIs. And this Arm-based Dell will not be able to run many binaries compiled for 64 bit Windows or any for Mac. 32 bit Windows Apps will mostly work.

Which might be pretty limiting, depending on what kind of software you run.

>Windows 10 enables existing unmodified x86 apps to run on Arm devices. Windows 11 adds the ability to run unmodified x64 Windows apps on Arm devices! This ability to run x86 & x64 apps on Arm devices gives end-users confidence that the majority of their existing apps & tools will run well even on new Arm-powered devices.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview

It works well enough that I have Visual Studio running without issue. However, no one has been able to get SQL Server running.

Windows for ARM has inbuilt x86 emulation. Having experimented with it in a VM on my Mac, I found it worked quite well in terms of both reliability and performance. Granted, I was running smaller Win32 applications - for large and/or performance sensitive applications, I imagine I might have run into issues.

>32 bit Windows Apps will mostly work

... Which is Win32

Lots of x64 apps making Win32 system calls. Those tend to have more problems on Arm than the x86 apps making those calls.

Yeah I find this very strange as well. Isn't this more or less exactly what Apple did 6-7 years ago which was almost universally hated?

I wonder if maybe they have implemented the touch bar in a much more useful way? The mac one was pointless and only served to reduce utility but with the right software it could have been fantastic. Some 3rd party software hacks even gave it haptic feedback (by activating the trackpads haptics) and that alone made it a million times better. Interested to see what Dell have done with it.

Apple had the best chance of it due to making their own web browser, OS, media player, mail app, photo gallery app, etc and having close relationships with big apps like Final Cut Pro, Adobe. What chance does Dell have?

I have an XPS 13 (the current Intel version, not the ARM version obviously) and they definitely have not. In fact, I've had the touchbar replaced 3 times and the whole computer replaced once because when the touchbar gets too hot, it starts "phantom pressing" the keys on it.

The replacement machine still has the issue, but it has a newer generation CPU which generally runs a bit less hot, so it's not as big an issue as it was on the previous machine.

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