Romance author gets locked out of Google Docs for "inappropriate" content
dexerto.com
dexerto.com
> a friend texted to say the shared Google folders where Renee kept her works in progress were no longer accessible. Her friend had planned to read and make notes on one of Renee’s stories and was surprised to be locked out. “You no longer have permission to view this document,” said the pop-up message. “If you believe this is an error, contact the document owner.”
[..]
> Renee logged into Docs and tried sharing the documents again. Then she received her own message from Google. “Can’t share item,” was the header. “You cannot share this item because it has been flagged as inappropriate,” read the body text.
[..]
> That author later posted a video to Instagram explaining that it wasn’t the adult content in the files but rather “Google thought I was spamming people.” Apparently, sending the same doc to scores of people—for example, alpha and beta readers—can make it appear as though the doc was unsolicited.
Can I prove this with absolute certainty? No. Is it the straight-forward common-sense explanation when you just shared a document with scores of people? Yes.
But whatever the case may be, title is still hugely misleading. Lots of the comments here are railing against a situation that doesn't exist.
A friend of mine had a saucy document get locked from sharing recently, and it definitely wasn't spammed.
Also "that author" is a completely different person from the subject author.
https://support.google.com/drive/thread/172795978/project-ma...
Legally speaking it's incredibly unlikely that Google is actually parsing the textual content of stuff on Google docs. The reason being that if they demonstrate that they can, then suddenly legally they must, and also they open themselves to being sued for doing it incorrectly and failing to remove content that is illegal in certain jurisdictions. There's really nothing in it for them.
Edit: seems like Google has also a different mechanism for telling you if the file itself is the problem - you get an email saying [filename] is a terms of service violation.
See e.g. https://www.googlecloudcommunity.com/gc/Workspace-Q-A/Your-f...
So I think we can be fairly confident that it's not a problem with saucy material here.
And no, I don't think we can be fairly confident that the error messages work exactly as you say.
Glad they fixed it. Still, like others have mentioned, it's a pain that there's never any recourse if you get caught by the filter unintentionally.
Thanks Google, for appointing yourself as the Sunday school snitch.
If they enforce some community's or culture's norms, or proactively try to avoid enabling any violations of some jurisdiction's laws, people will find things about that that outrage them, including misunderstandings, or ways that those norms aren't shared by others, or ways that they can be oppressive.
If they don't do that, other people will get outraged about how the companies are allowing or facilitating "bad stuff" which they obviously could have chosen not to allow or facilitate to the same extent.
But there might be no actual possible course of action which would avoid both forms of outrage!
And, at a large scale, false positive rates and false negative rates are usually in a trade-off, even when people supposedly agree on what is supposed to happen. (Which they also don't actually agree on.) That's especially true when companies are using software and statistics to help them make judgments, or when they're not spending billions of dollars to have decisions made by domain experts, at leisure, with rights of appeal.
And to be clear: what happened is that she was prevented from sending more share links after sending 80 or so of them, with "spicy" content. She wasn't "locked out". Title is wrong. This is basic spam filtering, which does have the occasional false positive.
The only possible course of action (which upends may a business plans/models) is to not host the data in the first place; not even encrypted.
Offer software that stores stuff where users choose to (local drive, NAS, private server, s3 bucket/backblaze/etc although that's getting close to "hosting data")... How computing used to be - and should hopefully one day become, again... Assuming we veer off this dystopian timeline.
Google is a company based in a country that claims to highly value freedom of speech.
Soon the site filled with nazi stuff among other things, so the author in fear of getting in trouble, relocated the site to a more free-speech country. Where? To the USA.
A free speech country is not the same as a country where some companies have restrictive policies. You cannot post a nipple in Instagram and then cry "muh freedom of speech". Use one of the endless sites to post such things or roll your own: the government won't stop you.
Additionally, we should stop measuring the size of a country's free speech commitment by how legally easy it is to host Nazi bullshit. Let us not forget that Nazis hate freedom of speech and use all sorts of extralegal bullshit to stifle it. A country or platform in which it is legal or permitted to express Nazi political opinions is one where you have less freedom of speech, not more.
Freedom of speech is a balancing act in which we tie the hands of people in power to allow those out of power to speak their mind.
For example: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/supremo-confirma-condena-re... a small humoristic newspaper fined 40K€ for a face swapping like the one with Trump and Hilary you see, but with a local bullfighter.
https://www.publico.es/sociedad/estos-son-seis-tuits-supremo... a musician sentenced to a year in jail for six tweets abut terrorism, later revoked.
A woman almost two years to jail for dark joking about a guy killed in 1975: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_Cassandra. Later revoked in the Supreme Court. The jokes were all well known, I've been hearing them since the 1980's.
There's even a lawyer firm that only exists to sue people for offending christian beliefs (https://abogadoscristianos.es/), the modernized version of the spanish inquisition you didn't expect.
If you live in the USA be careful if you want to limit freedom of expression, because you will end with a tool to bully people. You dislike a newspaper? Sue them and hope it goes well. Nazis are at least gone? I'm afraid, but no: they are stronger than ever in the last 50 years.
matrixWe don't need to "appreciate it" any more than we need to appreciate how hard it is to get gasoline to the pump, I appreciate that by buying the gas, I appreciate Google's service by buying Workspace (or if you use Docs for free, which you probably shouldn't, granting them a license to use and resell some of your data).
Now specifically the problem with Google is that they don't want to do all the work involved in their line of business. They invest very little time in doing effective content moderation and support with humans and that's why you get ridiculous events like this one. Their model, and this is the key thing to understand, is to be large enough that they can cut costs and deliver worse service but you stay with them anyway because switching is hard and you don't have a lot of alternatives.
This is pretty much the textbook definition of monopoly-style market power abuse, and it's essentially illegal, so another way of putting this is Google's business strategy is to be large enough that they can violate the law without consequences.
They are a mafia.
These types of people are always saying "data is the new oil," well that means Google is the new Standard Oil. It needs to be broken up otherwise it will continue to violate the law willfully at scale.
> And, at a large scale, false positive rates and false negative rates are usually in a trade-off, even when people supposedly agree on what is supposed to happen. (Which they also don't actually agree on.) That's especially true when companies are using software and statistics to help them make judgments, or when they're not spending billions of dollars to have decisions made by domain experts, at leisure, with rights of appeal.
There is a course of action that leads to far better results; human review. But that cuts into the $billions of quarterly profits, so we don't want that.
The idea that it's unaffordable to these companies is a complete fabrication. It should be forced upon them. If that halves their profit, so be it, it just means their margins have been too high due to offloading negative externalities unto society.
> On top of that, who the fuck would ever use a product if their private notepad was going to be read by a human moderator? There is no easy answer here.
Besides, we've gotten to a point where it's not clear if A. every single thing being ingested as data to create a profile of me off (current situation, e.g. Gmail) is better than B. Only a portion that has been flagged being reviewed by a human.
There's a lot of low-hanging fruit which humans-in-the-loop would be used for to give far better results. A very obvious example being Meta's key role in the Rohingya genocide. Plenty of outsiders banged on Facebook's door, but they wouldn't listen, costing thousands of people their lives. There's lots of such "obvious" cases. Content moderation is extremely difficult when it comes to things that toe the line, sure, but I wasn't really talking about those.
Users, regulators, investors etc. all want different things that are mostly incompatible, and you're bound to piss some and please others to varying degrees.
Its as ridiculous as saying Microsoft is support terrorism because they use computers running windows.
You bring up a good point about regulators though. That probably is the most credible danger,
Is weird to think outrage is normal ?
There's no pleasing of every single human on earth, and any company with a large enough audience needs to balance their position and have priorities. Once they made a choice, it's natural they get the scrutiny for the consequences, and if they're not happy with the tradeoff they're free to adjust and piss off another group of people.
If the goal is to give them a pass because choices are hard, I'd say no. They should deal with the outrage.
They won't get outraged, they'll just not use it if they feel unsafe. That means less ad money, which is death for a monopolistic ad company, that's all. No outrage required.
But, I did find out google thought I was spamming people. Which I’m hindsight is kind of funny. Sharing your first chapter with 80+ people on a google doc link I guess would look a little sus. Oops.
There may be more than meets the eye to this one as well.
Not unrelated: a previous HN discussion complaining about getting spam from Docs/Drive. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34933173
I have to imagine more than one erotic publishing house has content hosted on Google Docs.
Random website claims that 39 million printed romance novels were sold in 2023.
This is why my cloud-stored backups are encrypted prior to upload.
Anyway Google could actually lock her out if it wants to. That's why using cloud storage is a bad idea. If you're using it, at least make sure that you've got a local copy so that things like this won't happen.
So I can sue them if, for example, I read about how to do something dangerous and hurt myself? Or libel?
Interesting.
In 2012, Eugene Volokh argued on behalf of Google that it was indeed a publisher:
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/business/media/eugene-vol...
Disclosure: I work at Google, but not on anything related to this.
Sometimes people forget that part of security is availability.
Wired source:
What Happens When a Romance Writer Gets Locked Out of Google Docs
There's a dedicated subculture of women that like hockey players called "puck bunnies".
I had no idea, either. There are stranger genres, but what an oddly specific fetish.
Shouldn't that be called Erotica rather than Romance, then?
Compare this reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/RomanceBooks/comments/r8cqrh/are_th...
Where, as you can see, the title is "are there any romance books without sex?", the poster acknowledges that this is a strange thing to ask, and the responses identify special terms for romance novels that are missing the defining feature of the genre.
Edit: and actually, you made an even stronger claim that romance and "explicit content" are definitionally equal, which really suggests you've never heard the term "erotica" which is well-established to be different from "romance".
Because they don't agree with you. "Clean romance" is to "romance" as "fish vegetarian" is to "vegetarian". It's a contrast, not a subtype.
The idea that "clean romance" is "romance without sex scenes" immediately tells you that "romance" includes sex scenes. That's what "the exception that proves the rule" means.
I'm familiar with the term "erotica". It is not restricted to books, but erotica in book form goes under the name "romance novels".
You're literally the first person I've ever encountered with this idea, after reading/watching dozens of articles/talks about genre from people in the field. You're also the first person I've seen to mention the term "fish vegetarian", which is indeed stupid; that's probably why those people are usually called "pescatarians".
That might be the problem. Taking an example from a different field, I am comfortable using the term "finite" to mean "more than zero". This is a common mathematical usage. (If you're curious, it contrasts "finite" with "infinitesimal" as opposed to "infinite".)
People without mathematical training tend to object to it.
If you're marketing books, because you're a bookstore, or a publisher, then you need to put clean romance somewhere, it shares most of its audience with romance, and it's natural to think of them as a group.
But this is looking at the question from the wrong direction. If you ask "what's the term for a book with explicit sex scenes in it?", the answer to that is "a romance novel".
I knew a Chinese World of Warcraft player who collected the item series called Steamy Romance Novels. ( https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Steamy_Romance_Novel )
She found them funny, but she remarked to me once that they seemed a lot more sexual than the title, "romance novel", implied.
I put this down to unfamiliarity with English. Do you think more of the English-speaking player base should be confused by the items?
No, you nailed it with the marketing angle, the overlapping audience is the exact reason it's useful to put them all in one group.
> If you ask "what's the term for a book with explicit sex scenes in it?", the answer to that is "a romance novel".
No, the answer is just "book with explicit sex scenes". That's a cross-cutting feature across all kinds of genres, some of which are neither romance nor even erotica. You can have a thriller with explicit sex. To my knowledge there's no specific, shorter word or term for it.
A romance in publishing-speak is actually a very specific formula in many ways. Romance readers are somewhat infamously picky about their happy endings, for instance. But there's an expected arc of characters meeting, having obstacles to getting together, and finally overcoming those obstacles. That's the heart of the genre, not sex. I know less about erotica, but it's much more specifically and completely about sex.
Sorry, but to the extent it's possible to be wrong about terminology, as defined by actual usage, you're just dead wrong about this.
Actually, more nuance: the thing about computing with someone else computer is: that someone else's compliance with various regulations decides what you can do or say with their resources. Worse than it being Google idiocy is that it's something they may actually have to do, as advised by their lawyers.
There is a reason why "First thing lets kill all the lawyers." is a line of classic literature.
I happily moved away to a different provider (an alternative to G Drive) that has no such ridiculous issues, and is substantially cheaper too.
Google may not always be great, but this sounds like a nothingburger until proven otherwise to me.
Full stop.
They’re convenient sure, but they’re also restrictive and all too often just a protection racket via subscriptions.
Sorry, but that’s just how it is.
Even generative AI and LLMs have reasonable results being run on home user gaming rigs and the latest Mac chips.
The author would have had zero problems on a home server sharing a Nextcloud link to just 80 people.
Multiple projects seem to be converging on a single box solution that can be shared, but none are quite there. Tailscale has basically made it zero risk to share to a trusted network. But it would be nice if the Raspberry Pi people or a similar project would be willing to put out something they're willing to stake their reputation on that could be near immediately shareable without opening yourself up to attacks from everyone on the Internet.
I really hope the single box solutions get at least close to it.
filed under rotten choices and moving on