Tech companies are flocking to the Middle East
washingtonpost.com
washingtonpost.com
I don't agree with the point on blacklisting countries. We boycotted South African goods back in the day when were were pushing for the fall of Apartheid. And I'll be boycotting Israeli goods right now. And I'd stop my boss working with Saudi if I could.
Bring the grey'ness ...
but nothing remotely close to that has occurred in 30 years and trade is more interlinked as not to really affect countries the same way even if it did occur
with that in mind, how I feel is that harboring that sentiment requires having major blind spots about all the other places you do business with. and the disdain is 100% misapplied to other people or your employer. For example, its one thing if its the Prince’s investment fund, its another thing if its a random private equity fund or private office in Saudi Arabia. The boycotter’s broad, cognitively negligent, generalizations seem far more insensitive than the person disregarding their complaints about human rights abuses.
…where is your boycott of Silicon Valley? you don’t feel it is an ethical issue to bring money and knowhow into that country? which country passes your standard exactly
why would you vilify other people choosing to do business with those private organizations based on their nexus?
And public beheadings are truly medieval and barbaric.
the unwillingness of boycotters to see that makes me more willing to ignore them
But nothing about the principle that societies are entitled to decide for themselves how to govern themselves requires people in America to accept Americans doing business with other people who have very different values. That’s a completely different matter.
- this message was made in china, like your shirt, your shorts, your socks, and so on snd so on.
I think there's a difference between doing the minimum that is not a disadvantage and making a relationship with an ethical discount country your competitive advantage.
I don’t think your example supports the point you think you’re making.
By "the Saudis" you mean the ruling family? Those are the only people who are deciding anything in SA.
Source? We don't know the actual skin tone of Ancient philosophers, but it's likely that Greek and Roman philosophers (many of which were born in and lived in Middle East or Africa) were of darker skin than the Germanic barbarians, whom they considered inferior.
If we argue which type of death is more or less pleasant we've directly descended into not just the Middle East, but the Middle Ages.
That being said, I enjoy my individual rights in the US and wouldn’t live anywhere else but there is a valid argument to be made that our ethics are sometimes a little too short sighted/individualistic and not holistic enough.
(I’m also definitely against the death penalty, just trying to make a point)
The deterrence does work and saves countless lives that would have been taken from ODs and cartel-ish activities
Singapore = if you have money all of their supposed laws etc do not apply (just like so many other places).
Who would have thought that cutting someone's limbs off as a punishment would result in nearly very little theft in those countries too.
People that don't realize that can just crawl back to their cave and live out the darwinistic dreams there. (Just speaking/ranting generally here now.)
> Who would have thought that cutting someone's limbs off as a punishment would result in nearly very little theft in those countries too.
Only people that don't read up on the science. Draconian measure affect crime rates much less than immediate negative feedback after the crime (which doesn't need to be draconian).
Edit: It's a gray area of engineering ethics that can only remain intact by avoiding even the appearance of impropriety. If it feels bad, then it's work or business best avoided.
The world is a horrible place.
(Dubai is part of the UAE)
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/duba...
All you have to do is starting reading about DarkMatter or G42 group. Somehow, working in AI on training new LLMs can put you into a direct line to the guys who murdered Khashoggi
I think back to that movie "Cube" and the philosophical discussion they have about the creators of the system that they're in. They end up agreeing that the individual cubes were built for possible benign or even good reasons, but in their combining together does it turn into a "torture" chamber. That individual good intentions can be subverted at scale to have "tyranny" without the mitigating factor of the tramua that it normally induces is scary indeed.
I expect in time the UAE might soften up even further. Many of their orthodox/conservative values have been eroding away for decades now. Their native Emirati population is an absolute minority now and there is no way they’re not going to be forced to continue liberalization.
The current president (one of only 2) is the son of the first and he isn’t as liberal or as charitable, although his dad did create the country by unifying the region after Great Britain pulled out.
But he isn't too bad, but if he goes away, UAE being an authoritarian dictatorship, it could go both ways.
Inconsistent and unpredictable governance is the death knell of many countries and any organization. That’s why authoritarian governments are never stable long term.
Authoritarian governments counter this issue with hereditary monarchy. The current leader can impart their knowledge and mindset on their next of kin, and having a clear successor removes power struggles and provides predictability. Even if the successor has different views this is often known far in advance, which allows people to take this into consideration.
It's by no means perfect and has lots of opportunities to go wrong, but over the last 1000 years or so hereditary monarchies have a much better track record of stability than democracies.
As it turns out: the problems of monarchies is innate. Hereditary Monarchies lead to a separation into "Noble" vs "Peasant" classes, where Nobles have a genetic line to the throne. The Nobles believe themselves to be superior and start putting themselves into various sections of government, when in actuality many Peasants are actually better than the Nobles.
So when it comes to War (the only time societies can directly compare against each other), the side that has a bigger recruitment pool (ie: Peasant commanders, aka Napoleon's secret sauce), tends to win. This is also true of sciences, research, production, etc. etc. Every part of society, there are likely peasant leaders who are best at the job.
Peasants win not necessarily because Peasants are smarter, but because peasants are at "sometimes" smarter, and this "sometimes" happens in a large enough degree that anyone who cuts off their leadership pool into "Family members of the Monarch only" innately hampers their abilities to lead over time.
-----------
Now colonial rule by far-away foreign powers is clearly a bad situation as well (as Britain's control over its former colonies can likely attest). But that's not "Democracy" either.
Hereditary monarchy may be an improvement over UAE's position (ie: better than foreign colonialism), but lets not get ahead of ourselves. The world gave up on monarchies over a century ago for a good damn reason.
Still, I think it's important to acknowledge that authoritarian governments have seen a lot of refinement over thousands of years, while democracies are historically the exception and only became popular 300 years ago. Expecting authoritarian governments to just implode without external influence seems unfounded.
The UAE is actually pretty predictable.
All in all, I wouldn't call UAE a dictatorship.
Compared to other Muslim countries, it's pretty relaxed. Foreigners can buy alcohol, eat pork, and pre and extra-marital relationships are tolerated among foreigners as long as it's behind closed doors.
Locals of course get favoured for positions of power within companies, but most of them are pretty well educated, so that isn't so bad.
You don't want to piss them off, as you don't know what connections they might have. But that's no different from the elite class in any other country, such as the UK or Italy - it's just there are a higher percentage of them, and it's not hidden away.
Many of the locals feel repressed at home, which is why London is a popular travel destination for them. You see women in burka with their eyes covered get on in Dubai, and by the time they've landed in London, they have changed into jeans and a fashionable top and are showing off their hair. If anything changes, that's probably going to be the catalyst. But most likely the UAE will just become more liberal rather than a big shift in power.
However, the mega-fatal flaw is that it is not reliably sustainable.
Ultimately, every dictatorship becomes malevolent.
Then, the need to protect the malevolent leadership from the subjects forces closed, loyalty-based structures, and plants the seeds of the dictatorship's demise as mistrust and inefficiency rot the structure and the society. Meanwhile, millions rot and die.
It seems the nature of hereditary monarchies helps moderate the despotism, as there is an incentive to maintain the balance for the future of the monarchic family. If they get too despotic, they will get overthrown, and that's the end of the gravy train for not only them but also all their descendants; and they have the ability to train in these constraints from birth. So my conjecture is that this contributes to the longevity of the hereditary monarchies.
Sadly, the words about eternal vigilance as the price of liberty are as true today as 250 years ago, and even that is not a guarantee :(
That's really a VERY narrow slice of those societies in Tehran/Mashhad/Isfahan and Kabul.
But his point still stands, things can and do go to shit, anywhere. 90s were a magical period when world consistently fell even from major news like moving towards bright future. 9/11 changed that for good and common americans let that fear-based manipulation (and 2 absolutely meaningless wars as we see now) happen and gradually roll over entire world, that's also one of 'super powers' of being a superpower.
Not that these liberal vistas were not true, but they did not represent the whole truth.
The same applies to UAE, to the modern Saudi Arabia, etc, but also, say to European countries themselves (hi, Hungary, are you blazing the trail for Poland?) and the US (where suddenly half the population supports Trump).
The UAE and SA are very different.
Non-emiratis women are wearing bikinis everywhere on the Dubai beaches. You can buy alcohol there are the supermarket (you need a license for that but it's easy to get).
And, yup, women can drive there.
Singling out Silicon Valley or the Middle East also doesn’t make sense when most of the economy has been outsourcing manufacturing to China, which annexed Tibet illegally and subjected them to re education, committed genocide in Xinjiang against Uyghurs, suppressed its citizens with the great firewall and social credit scores, violated agreements around Hong Kong’s governance, illegally attacked other countries ships in the South China Sea, etc. Comparatively, the UAE and Saudi Arabia feel friendly.
Perhaps you mean that companies are insulated from politics because they operate in a business-friendly dictatorship where the majority of residents are migrant workers with no rights. No unionization worries when you can just confiscate passports and delay payment of wages as needed.
We have to remember that the UK is not a real country. It does not have a real government. It's all Potemkinised. It's all for show. It's not real. It's not run by serious people. It's run for oligarchs and money launderers.
Besides, the 2018 killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi is now a massive 6 years in the past, so no-one is tweeting about it or shaming any Saudi-friendly folks publicly about it any more, so the startup CEOs can come and busk on the Riyadh street corners without fear of retribution.
Much of this immigration-driven offshoring or, shall I coin it, "glamorshoring" will stop or even reverse once H1B fraud is reduced in the next few years.
Now it's the domain of MBA-bros and idea guys- sorry, Thought Leaders- trying to measure themselves with their bank accounts.
They ditched even the most basic principles (like, "Don't be evil") in pursuit of obscene wealth and unsustainable growth, so why is anyone shocked they sold away their political principles as well?
"Don't be evil" was a silly cultural builder mantra and marketing tool.
There were people like that in the old days (TJ Rogers, Larry Ellison) but also a lot of hippie-influenced folks with an idealistic world view. People literally talked about making the world a better place without irony.
But when the .com boom appeared people flooded here for the money and, since it appeared "make the world better" was one of the things people said, it was cargo-culted widely ("we're making the world a better place by allowing advertisers to reach audiences they were previously excluded from").
Fortunately the density of idealists is higher in SV and density of narcissists higher in SF. But yes, the quality has gone down.
Silicon Valley used to be "Defense Valley" because it built weapons systems for the DOD long before the web came around. It was never the domain of nerds and introverts trying to build a better future, it has always been evil and done evil for the sake of capitalism.
1. work for a business man
2. become a business man yourself
3. do some other job to support yourself and think / tinker only as a hobby
The distinction between business and capital is pretty blurred right now, and it shouldn't be. Operating a charity that delivers donated food to orphaned victims of war is a business in the broad sense of the word, and there are many things that go into operating it well, including things like management and finance. Those things do not, inherently, have to be in the pursuit of capital growth; there are many humanistic ends they can be directed to. But in our world as it stands they usually aren't - they're directed towards capital growth and that fact corrupts them like it corrupts everything else.
Or, put another way, there is a difference between "making enough money to run a sustainable business" and "making all the money it is possible to make". Many large businesses run reasonably substantial profit margins, and every dollar of profit a business makes is a dollar it could afford not to make in the pursuit of more humanistic ends if it so chose.
You say "your average businessperson is not very interested in making the world better if it plays against their personal ambitions." But I claim that it's not your average businessperson it's your average person with business people just being a subset of that.
And that's not even getting into the problem of how does anybody really know how to make the world a better place. In my experience people with a "just doing my job" attitude make much better bosses than those who act like they have a higher purpose.
I tend to think, for example, that your average Boeing engineer probably wanted to do a good job and not have doors fall off their planes. But when you put multiple layers of abstraction in the way and have leaders looking through business metrics, it isn't hard for everyday crappiness to maneuver its way to the point where that isn't prioritized. Almost no one in the chain really thinks they're sacrificing safety, they think they're doing their job and improving efficiency by cutting redundant steps.
> In my experience people with a "just doing my job" attitude make much better bosses than those who act like they have a higher purpose.
Sure, because there's a difference between a performative "mission", a self-obsessed founder who makes their own success a story about the future of Earth, and someone who makes concretely difficult decisions when the chips are down.
This is kind of what I mean by the corruptive effects of growth. Having a mission is a good thing, but most companies' "missions" are implicitly always secondary to their financial growth, or worse, a cynical ploy for employee engagement. When people write crappy press releases about how "this will enable us to serve more of our users" (read: expand our market), that's not a statement about how serving users is bad, it's just that for most businesses it's necessarily with an asterisk of "we want to serve our users* *as long as it pleases our investors".
Just as people should specialize, institutions should too.
We should not have this whole movement to jawbone companies into being “nice.” All we are going to get is a creepy facsimile. See, e.g. greenwashing.
Instead we should understand that profit maximizing firms operating in competition with each other is an incredibly powerful but one dimensional tool. We in our sovereign capacity should set the incentives and rules such that those tools are used to accomplish the things we collectively desire to see in the world.
Incentives and rules (with enforcement) are reliable and durable. A “better businessperson” is just transient luck.
I wish this were true. But a largish slice of the US polity (headed by one of the two credible candidates for President) is dead against these things and attacks any sort of institutional infrastructure or notion of accountability whenever it's politically expedient to do so. In a less obvious way, that movement is also dedicated to the dismantlement of the administrative state - ostensibly in the name of returning legislative power and accountability to the Congress, pragmatically because it adheres to a vision of commercial activity with far less legal restraint.
The point is you have to convince these people. That’s the whole and only ballgame.
Trying to pressure companies into wearing skinsuits via external or internal pressure might be satisfying but it’s a waste of effort.
Convince one company not to work with UAE and another one will gladly take its place. Elect a President that takes human rights into account in foreign policy and now you might get somewhere.
But to do that you have to actually go talk to people that disagree with you. Not just post preaching to the choir posts about how terrible those other guys are.
The prevailing orthodoxy in this group is that losing elections or court cases is a priori evidence of fraud, violent action to overturn negative outcomes is often permissible, and that this right is reserved for future negative outcomes. They're not willing to be convinced, and loudly advertise their belief that it's OK to impose their point of view on others by force. I mean, if you're dealing with someone who avers that you should be fed into a woodchipper, it's not wise to put one arm in pursuit of a compromise.
The Middle East’s play to rule global sports - Washington Post November 7, 2023 - How Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar are upending the sports world — and what they want from their newfound power.
Texas A&M pulls branch out of Qatar, citing regional instability - The Washington Post February 11, 2024 - The Qatari government pays hundreds ... to the universities each year and in return the branches provide elite higher education for hundreds of Qatari students as well as others from around the region.
Related: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority
It suffices for an intransigent minority –a certain type of intransigent minorities –to reach a minutely small level, say three or four percent of the total population, for the entire population to have to submit to their preferences.
https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=2577454370150&w=QcciwZ3FHM...
or
x=https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/05/14/middle-east-ai-tech-companies-saudi-arabia-uae/
tnftp -4o\|yy091 $x > 1.htm
links ./1.htm
firefox ./1.htm
yy091 (39 KiB, static-pie): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40361859Basically SA started a golf league (LIV) buy paying hundreds of millions of dollars a piece to established pro golfers who are probably on their way out of pro sports in terms of their career anyhow. Great deal for an aging player unlikely to win many times again, so many took the money. PGA tour responded by banning these players from competing in their tournaments. Fast forward a year, the PGA tour commissioner sets up a secret deal to integrate SA funding into the PGA tour and blindsides the people resenting the players as well as most anyone else. Doesn't respond to comments when it breaks of course. Mind you this is after that same commissioner was grandstanding for a year against the LIV league about Saudi ethics and bloodmoney. Turns out he was just negotiating a price.
with the massive excess of software talent that's flooding the market, they're going to get what they're after one way or another.
Any specificity to this example that doesn’t apply to any game-changing technology?
Cars are not inherently tools of government, it's just they've been regulated such that that is their direction of development. Personal computers were similarly not that way either.
The key problem in both cases is imposing the requirement to be connected to the internet, after which it's game over.
My point is we can do this for anything. Clocks enabled capitalists to exploit workers. Lights took the night from rebels. Steam engines took farmers out of the daylight and put them in mechanised factories. Hell, agriculture enabled modern civilisation but also created such a wave of oppression and anxiety we're still worshiping the gods we invented to save us from it.
None of those statements is wrong. But they're also incomplete.
Conversely, if you are of no use to such a regime you will not get very far. The only meaningful question here is how organic this phenomenon is.
nVidia - existed for years before most people noticed just what they were up to, and their change in valuation reflects that. For them AI was the point from the start, games was just the bootstrapping mechanism. Prior to the AI explosion they were a decent business but not a spectacular success.
Facebook - succeeded where almost every other social media app failed before by enabling data gathering and narrative control for the most important demographics in society (MySpace, for example, did not)
Google - a gov funded research project to organise and index information
Tesla - people dependent on the electrical grid are far easier to control than those dependent on gasoline.
And despite the fact that OpenAI has incredibly low adoption everywhere outside of that, it is still worth tens of billions of dollars. Do you really think that valuation comes from being able to remove people from fuckin cellphone pictures with a tap, or generating royalty free images?
> Tesla - people dependent on the electrical grid are far easier to control than those dependent on gasoline.
I'm sorry, your tinfoil hat is slipping.
That's Google.
I live in Quebec where the gov electricity monopoly (Hydro Quebec) now insist that new homes have smart meters in, where they can remotely control your thermostat, while simultaneously campaigning to make all alternatives illegal. Curiously we're also a big Tesla market because of the cheap electricity, which is also the reason for the thermostats: they want to turn the heating down in Quebec so they can sell the same electricity for more south of the border.
Where do you think gasoline comes from exactly? I can rechange an electric car completely off grid with solar/wind. I'm still working on my off-grid oil drilling and refinery operation.
If you try charging a car from a solar panel you aren't going to be going very far in a hurry.
To answer your question with the clarity in which it was posed... 'definitely'
He was an Australian contractor, working for the UAE.
He was working on a database system, for tracking citizens. He flat-out told me it was a tool for their monarchy, to wield power.
In the US, people keep talking about the Second Amendment, as some kind of guarantor of liberty, but their eyes glaze over, when I tell them that the computer database is the biggest threat to human rights in history, and now, AI will make it much worse.
The advent of AI may bring down this last obstacle.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp...
That's assuming that the judge doesn't find a way to throw it out long before it ever sees a jury. Courts don't like wasting their time on stupid stuff.
Notoriously, Hans Reiser (who is guilty, never doubted that) refused a rather low plea bargain of IDK six? years, tried his luck with a jury trial, and got life.
An evil regime didn't even need computers for a database to be dangerous, computers just made it much more efficient and scarier.
However, if your regime is even smaller like 5% or 10% it's going to be extremely difficult to manage the remaining 95% without more advanced technology than pen and paper.
The notorious example is the Dutch Jews who basically filled in a register of themselves and provided it to the Nazis.
Statista agrees you with in that comparing the deaths by country to its initial population by country shows Germany around 32% while say Poland is 75% [1]. But the big problem with that is it omits emigration; I would suspect jews in Germany saw the writing on the wall and left. The Germany jewish population dropped from 525k to 37k [2] (with 165k dead [1]) which means 323k jews must've left Germany while Hungary dropped from 445k to 190k (with 270k dead) which means -25k jews emigrated (aka 25k jews immigrated).
So it just appears that Germany is less efficient because the local jews emigrated to other countries where they were then killed juicing those countries stats.
[1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1070564/jewish-populatio...
[2]: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/remaining-...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/22/magazine/hank-asher-data....
If war in Ukraine showed anything its that armed single guy, or bunch of them, are meaningless against any modern threat. Other, say SHTF scenarios, are just wet fantasies of big kids doing some obscure form of LARP.
What changed is that SV used to have neither power nor money.
Surely SV had to have power (including knowledgeable people) and money to develop semiconductor manufacturing facilities (famously expensive). Not to mention the support of US federal government spending.
When countries tax companies at 30%+ then tax people at up to 69% on income (50% income tax + 19% social welfare tax in Begium if you're self employed and making "good" money: good money which is not so good anymore after 69% taxes) on one hand and, on the other hand, you can establish a company in a free-zone in Dubai that taxes at 0%, it's going to cost you business.
Now, I know, I know: "But ethics?". Well... Guess what: if countries in, say, the EU had reasonable taxation, maybe 10% to 15%, many who prefer to pack and leave for Dubai would likely stay in the EU (weather is really warm in Dubai: you basically live with AC and Dubai is polluted). But 30% tax on my company, then another 30% on my dividends? Or up to 69% if I'm self-employed?
You know what: at these levels just screw my native country.
I voted with my feet and my wallet and left (not for the UAE though).
As a friend of mine puts it: "I buy (physical) commodities in Africa, I ship them from Africa to China and sell them to China... Why would I pay any tax to the EU?". And, guess what: he's got companies (with a 's') in freezones in Dubai to do his trade. He also pays 0% on dividends but that's another topic.
Commodities, diamonds (you can criticize humans wearing diamonds: that's not the point), international aviation (Dubai is a gigantic hub and this brings in lots of money/tourism), now even cryptocurrencies (instead of having an ultra-regulatory approach they prefer to be open), etc.
Who's really the bad guys here? What are "our" states doing: say the EU and the US? Besides coming with ever more taxes, ever more laws, ever more rules, ever less liberties?
Meanwhile the novelty coming to the EU is this: the EU, who's supposed to have no fiscal competence, wants to impose, on top of all the national taxes, a new mandatory EU tax, that'd apply to every EU citizen.
I am fed up with these taxes.
Offer me, say, a music streaming service that'd be located in Dubai vs one located in France (like Qobuz), and I'll subscribe to the one in Dubai (even if it's a bit pricier): I know for I'm currently hesitating subscribing to Qobuz because I disagree with the french state and don't want to encourage business there and don't want that country to get any more of my money.
Wanna compete and attract businesses? Lower your fucking KYC/AML and lower your fucking taxes.
I do understand there's an ongoing attack on Dubai at this very moment : it's not because the EU and the US suddenly want to put criminals out of business though... It's because the EU and the US are pissed that money that used to be laundered home is now laundered in the UAE instead.
Piss people enough, and they won't try to optimize to pay less taxes to their home country: piss them enough and they'll leave forever and make sure to never pay a cent anymore to their native country.
Lower taxes, remove KYC/AML. And arrest criminals for the crimes they commit, not for the taxes they don't pay.
They can't arrest themselves, can they? Ursula and all that swarm of useless corrupted bureaucrats can only steal and wash money through black holes like ukraine, perpetuating wars and enriching similarly corrupted puppeteers there.
So do we actually wonder business flee to UAE/SA?
I personally find the place absolutely unlivable, but do understand 0% tax can make it less unlivable (not for me though).
Such bad form
This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.
But there was a time when SV was a lot more passionate and freewheeling, and beliefs like "information wants to be free" were a lot more widely repeated.
I don't think it was shared by the semiconductor industry which gave SV it name, nor the defense industry which was also there.
Just look at the name of this website :)
This matters because it affects what sorts of products come out of SV. These days, most of the products are about extracting maximal dollars from customers. In the old days, there was a genuine interest in making great products rather than products that prioritize maximize dollar extraction.
Also, the nature of the dev population has changed. These days, a very large percentage of SV devs chose that line of work specifically because it's lucrative. Before, a very large percentage of SV devs chose that line of work because they loved being devs.
At least, that's what the change looks like to me. I could be wrong. But one thing that is absolutely obvious is that SV today is very different than SV back when it was in peak form.
Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
2. Advertising is a virus or tumor that will consume all available space in an ecosystem until there is no non-ad content left; it ultimately kills its host.
That being said, I absolutely vibe with the notion of ads being cancer. I would classify personally HN's "ads" as you describe as less advertisements and more just posted notices of things relevant to the community. I don't suspect money changes hands for those to be put up which I would personally classify as the line between the two. And, more importantly, they are likely to be relevant to a fair chunk of the users here, and for those they aren't, they're ignored easily enough too.
Also, when you say relevant to the community, what exactly is the definition of that? A job posting on "who is hiring" is likely to be relevant to maybe 0.001% of HN readers. If Apple put a big banner on the site saying "HN users get $100 off a MBP," I bet a much higher percentage of users would click on that (I would). But nobody would ever deny that is an ad. So I don't think community relevance is a great way to determine it. That community relevance factor is exactly what advertisers pay so much to targeted ad companies for anyway.
I do find ads annoying myself and use ad blockers to get rid of them. But I take exception to the idea that they are this cancerous destroying force. Published media has been an advertising platform since well before the internet and I just don't see a feasible way that business model can be replaced just because the medium is now the internet. Yes, there is subscription revenue, but even newspapers back in the day had ads on every page.
I mean, yes, but also no. We had pages upon pages of unprofitable websites once. There was a time, believe it or not, when all kinds of people setup all kinds of websites, with no expectation whatsoever of making money off of them. I for one hosted a niche phpBB board for years on end at my own expense, offset only by occasional donations from the community we built.
> And if you combine "posted notices of things relevant to the community" with a commercial intent, that is basically the definition of ads.
Well, again, yes and no. I think there's a nuance there. A job posting for example does have commercial intent, but at the same time, it's a mutually beneficial relationship (hopefully anyway) for both the entity and the employee. I would much rather see job ads in a place like this than, I dunno, weight loss drugs and erection pills.
> Also, when you say relevant to the community, what exactly is the definition of that? A job posting on "who is hiring" is likely to be relevant to maybe 0.001% of HN readers.
I think it's much higher than that. Just because you're not unemployed doesn't mean you wouldn't be interested in a job posting. People move companies all the time.
> If Apple put a big banner on the site saying "HN users get $100 off a MBP," I bet a much higher percentage of users would click on that (I would). But nobody would ever deny that is an ad.
But, if the community overall benefits from that, even if that benefit is nothing more significant than a cheaper mac, I'd say that's an overall win for all involved.
> So I don't think community relevance is a great way to determine it. That community relevance factor is exactly what advertisers pay so much to targeted ad companies for anyway.
I'm not saying an ad is good because it's relevant. I'm saying an ad is less irritating if it's relevant. That's why I find most ads so grating, because they are for products I have zero interest in and they are occupying space and attention that would be better filled with something I'm at least vaguely interested in.
Given that I doubt you are following the high water of cultural morality as it shifts around the world, sounds to me like bigotry might be fueling you here.
Is that optimism shared by the foreign workers?
Americans have their own version of what is right but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone.
Competition is a wonderful thing.
Same as China, the first tier cities actually feel like the future.
It's not perfect, but different in it's own way.