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Comment by ProfessorLayton | Hacker News Reader

Apple really, really needs to develop something similar to Samsung's DEX. They insist on keeping iPadOS on training wheels, while also making macOS more iPad-like (To its detriment imo).

What I think would satisfy a lot of users is if an iPad (And even an iPhone!) turned into a full-on Mac with full macOS with a keyboard and pointer attached. No need to create a convoluted hybrid touch+pointer UX that wouldn't be great at either, like Microsoft has proven. I simply want to be able to do more with the hardware I already own, and transfer files between my mobile/content consumption modes and when I'm creating/developing/working on something.

I know Apple just wants to sell more hardware, but what's happened instead is I've lost interest in getting an iPad altogether.

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I think they've done the math on this one. They very heavily segment the market and most Apple users own several Apple devices. They fundamentally don't believe in the idea of one device being all things. This is also why their laptops don't have touchscreens.

I also don't think you can't bring all this to a device like an iPad and not alienate part of the existing market.

iPad Ultra [mode or device].

How do describe what it means to be an iPad? This is something that Apple cares about. If you have an iPad that is fundamentally different [more or device] then it's not really an iPad anymore.

The word iPad is already overloaded:

  iPad
  iPad Mini
  iPad Air 11/13, USB3
  iPad Pro 11/13, USB4
  iPad Pro 11/13 1TB+, USB4, 16GB, extra CPU core, matte [Ultra?]

Optional Pencil, wired thin keyboard, wired magic keyboard+trackpad, wireless (less secure) 3rd party keyboard cases, external display with Stage Manager, virtual desktop with Sidecar, Lockdown mode for more security, HDMI input as standalone monitor, USB ethernet, realtime audio descriptions of live camera feed, Center Stage auto-follow human during video conferencing, ... the list goes on.

Yet when someone picks up an iPad, regardless of specs, it's fundamentally the same experience. Same with all the iPhones and same with all the Macs.

Do they actually care? This sort of discrepancy has never bothered them before.

(see how the "Air" used to mean "ultra-premium thin and light", but now the iPad Air is heavier than the Pro, and the MacBook Air is just a brand they slap on the entry level MacBook, a model so entry level it's now sold at WalMart -- and the 15' Air is only 90 grams weight difference than the 14' Pro)

(see the "Apple Pencil" and how it means like 4 different things, with 4 different feature sets, and needs a product matrix spreadsheet to know which Pencil is safe to use with any given iPad)

See how "Apple TV" is both a hardware product (Apple TV 4K) and a service (Apple TV subscription) and an App (the Apple TV app, available on iOS, but also Roku and others), and a platform (the "Apple TV platform", where you can load other streaming services like Disney+ or Hulu or Paramount, into the Apple TV platform, which lives inside the Apple TV app, on your Apple TV device).

The MacBook Air is passively cooled; Pros have fans.

Except for the iPad Pro (which has no fans), and the iPhone Pro (which has no fans), and the AirPods Pro (which also does not have any fans).

"Pro" meaning "has active cooling" only works on 3 out of the 6 things currently labeled "Pro".

granted, I think they've invested so much into trackpad quality and software support, so much so that I think touchpad Macs are moot. On a PC laptop, where the trackpad is lowest bidder/afterthought, yeah, it kinda sorta makes sense but Mac touchpads are basically touchscreens without having to lift your arms.

No, they are nothing alike touchscreens. The whole and only point of a touchscreen is that you touch the actual visible thing on the screen (you touch the screen). Track pads, as good as they are, have 0 to do with that.

Just imagine if they offered a Mac without a keyboard, just the trackpad and the screen.

I wouldn't say they're nothing alike. The gestures developed for MacOS and the trackpad are paradigms derived from iPhone touch screens - swipe, pinch, zoom, tap to click (if turned on). And for the Mac, cognitively, at least with the cursor, the trackpad surface maps intuitively into the area of interest on the screen.

I agree, typing on a trackpad "keyboard" would suck, but on a Mac w/ a built in keyboard, that's superfluous. And who actually enjoys typing on an iPad on-screen keyboard?

Apple also hasn’t been afraid of cannibalizing their own market in favor of one with a bigger upside (eg iPod -> iPhone). It’s not that Apple has an aversion to multi-use devices, just that there is more upside to not having them.

Let’s take touchscreens for example. Apple doesn’t sell laptops with a touchscreen. Why? You suggested that it was because a touchscreen would threaten iPad sales.

I think that’s wrong and that the answer is simpler than that.

Apple doesn’t sell touchscreens because they want thin and light laptops. Touchscreens are heavy and thick. The math isn’t “adding a touchscreen will threaten iPad sales”. The math is “the market for a touchscreen laptop is smaller than the market for a super thin laptop”. Apple sells more laptops because they are super thin than they ever could if they added a touchscreen.

Why don’t they add a touchscreen as an option, you ask? Because they would need to have a different case to fit the touchscreen. And that would add more cost for not as much benefit.

Macbook displays are already covered with glass, I don't think adding digitizer to it would make it any thicker.

I think this argument would hit a little harder if Apple hadn't just released their thinnest device ever that is sporting both a touchscreen and a dual layer OLED that's better than any of their laptop screens. I've never broken out the calipers but imo most of Apple's thinness comes from the body and not the screen. You could probably find a number of touchscreen laptops with similar thickness displays. On top of that you could compare the weights of non-touch and touch models, the 15.6" LG gram for instance gains 0.03lbs in the touch model.

You have it wrong. Apple doesn’t fundamentally believe in selling one device (do-it-all iPad Pro) as opposed to selling two (Mac + iPad). The segmentation is a business decision, nothing else.

Apple have multiple iPad lines and could easily limit a desktop class OS to the iPad Pro, a move I can almost guarantuee would alianate noone.

Apple's representatives have said, I believe under oath, that they don't know and don't calculate how profitable the App Store is [1]. So, keep that in mind when asserting whether or not Apple has done the math on something; for better or worse, nowadays I believe its for the worse far more often, they love operating on vibes.

[1] https://9to5mac.com/2024/04/17/app-store-is-profitable-apple....

Apple’s lawyers advised them that they can provide that statement. It’s probably a weasel word, technically true statement.

Isn’t it telling that my m1 iPad Pro gets signifcantly less use than my crappy old Intel Dell (doing tasks MacOS is very much capable of)?

I probably wouldn’t replace it if something happened to it. iPad OS feels like a toy compared to a Mac.

Is it telling that my 2018 iPad Pro gets significantly more use than my ThinkPad P1? iPadOS is a joy to use compared to Fedora 40 and Windows 11 Pro.

If your use case allows for it there's nothing wrong with using the OS you find the most enjoyable to use. I find myself doing stuff on my PC frequently that either isn't practical or currently possible on an iPad (but in most cases would be on a Mac).

The only time I use my iPad over a laptop or something is for reading, watching videos or if I'm simply using it as a glorified ssh/rdp client to work on my other machines, but that's only if I want to consume media or read before I want to do anything else, which isn't often, and I don't generally put away my laptop to switch a tablet if the laptop can already do it.

Little things like the complete lack of multi-user support is why I don't ever hand it over to my kids or anything, they're insistent that it's a personal device and I find that unacceptable when they market it as a general computing replacement device that can't do something that has been available for decades everywhere else, even amongst their own products.. and that's without even going into having the ability to run software without Apple's blessing.. sideloading is not convenient and I've decided I'm no longer interested in buying a tablet or computer for myself that fights me on what software I can run on it.

> I find myself doing stuff on my PC frequently that either isn't practical or currently possible on an iPad

Same here, but for me it goes both ways.

Apple earns $28b a year from iPad sales. Samsung about a $1b.

At some point people on here need to realise that these devices simply aren't designed for them.

And that expecting Apple to dilute the value proposition with unpopular features like DEX is kind of misguided.

iPad sales have been stagnant for over a decade now, and they were bringing in 30B in revenue in 2012. You're correct that these devices weren't designed for some people — Which is why they aren't buying them.

And why I'm suggesting they start making what the people want.

> And why I'm suggesting they start making what the people want.

No it's what you want. The people have spoken. Nobody is buying Dex. Everyone is buying iPads.

There is little to no demand for turning the iPad into some tablet-computer hybrid.

That can be turned around to say that it's you that doesn't want it. Again, sales have been stagnant for a decade, so the people have indeed spoken.

The iPad already is a tablet/computer hybrid, it just so happens to be kind of bad at it, which is why articles like these keep popping up. Apple already has an OS optimized for pointer control, just allow macOS to load up with the right hardware connected.

If you (or anyone else) doesn't want that experience... Don't? Nothing would be a forced change for anyone that doesn't want it.

Stagnant for a decade with literally 55% of the global tablet market.

Seems to me that they are doing just fine.

stagnant nominally. 30B in 2012 is ~41B today.

so a rather stark decline.

Stark decline? This page doesn’t show a “stark decline”. If anything it’s showing remarkable consistency and slightly growing market share.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/276635/market-share-held...

is the iPad going from an inflation-adjusted ~41B in 2012 to 28B today not considered a stark decline in real revenue to you?

An Apple 2 was $1300 in 1977. An Apple MacBook Air can be bought at walmart today for sub $700. Does that mean that Apple has shown a “sharp decline” in revenue over their baseline product by nearly $5600 per machine in inflation adjusted revenue?

Does inflation adjusted revenue actually matter if cost to produce is lower and their market share is stable?

Total iPad revenue is down both nominally and in real terms. Profit margins are a percent of revenue, so real revenue decline does actually matter and not something a business wants. You'd be laughed out of a boardroom if you suggested otherwise.

Nobody was talking about company-wide revenue, nor cross-comparing products like a desktop to a laptop, this is a discussion on the iPad.

>“sharp decline”

Misquote suggest this is no longer a productive conversation.

> Misquote suggest this is no longer a productive conversation.

That was a mistake, I had meant stark and u intentionally mistyped it and I had quoted it already, but I agree that the conversation is not productive. However, its unproductive not because of the misquote, but of one party’s seemingly misunderstanding or perhaps avoidance of things like cost improvement factors, new competitors entering the market, and other consumer buying behaviors that might be involved when a new type of product is released to the public in favor a single cherry picked metric.

I use Dex

Looking at the European coffee shops, I see plenty of Surface and Android tablets on my bubble, so certainly not everyone.

Give some privacy on those android tablets and I’d have one. But android is scary for that. iPad = tablet that doesn’t make me worry about being studied and spied on

The Surface Pro seems to be exactly what you want, it must be dominating the iPad in unit volume.

Right, despite my OP asking to be able to run iPadOS and macOS apps on one device depending on usage, what I must have actually wanted is a device that can do neither.

iPad learned from Surface. They can learn from upcoming Qualcomm Arm devices designed by x86 PC OEMs.

I mean, a Surface Pro starts at $800 (or closer to $1k for a proper setup) while an iPad $350. The vast majority of iPad sales likely come from the lower end. There is no way to compare their sales number.

The fact that it isn’t mentioned is probably a testament to how poorly it sells but Microsoft does have the Surface Go for $499 to compete with the iPad Air.

True, honestly I completely forgot it exists.

Funny, the iPad is exactly what I want and I just ordered my third IPad Pro.

iPad sales aren't stagnating because people don't want them.

They are stagnating because the market is saturated.

The iPad is a "private" device, so there isn't any social pressure to have the latest model. You're not taking it out in public multiple times a day.

The use cases are also more limited, so even when the software support ends, there isn't that much incentive to upgrade. Streaming services still work, browser works and the drawing apps work, no point in getting a new one.

I've owned iPads since the 2nd gen and haven't had a single one's battery die on me. Every time the device physically broke (after being handed down twice) before the battery died.

The iPad is kind of just too good in a way. My mum uses a 2014 iPad Air 2. I bought it second hand for very cheap years ago. It still works perfectly fine. It’s been dropped several times on concrete and somehow didn’t smash. There is very little pressure to upgrade it to a newer one.

Samsung and googles past privacy practices scare the crap out of me. That’s why I own an iPad and not an android

Yeah, its not like companies care about user sentiment or ever take feedback into account for future product features. /s

If anything, Microsoft has proven hybrid laptops are loved by enteprises, and they would even buy more Surfaces, if the Surface business unit wasn't having some drama due to the way Windows gets managed nowadays.

Disclaimer: I don't own an iPad so cannot test this.

Isn't UTM working on iPad? Looks like it according to UTM web pages. What prevents anyone to run MacOS or any Linux distro as a fullscreen VM on iPadOS like it was a regular laptop?

Maybe if you like DEX you should just buy DEX? I love the iPad I have and I don't need more ways to shoot myself in the foot, I have a computer for that

This is akin to telling people that want to load their own software/sideload apps to an iPhone to go buy an Android. It is neither what they asked for, nor something that'll impact you if you choose not to participate.

No, it is telling people "if you want a computer then get a computer". Perhaps one reason iPad is so insanely successful and a pleasure to use (compared to dex etc) is that it's specifically not one. Connect the dots.

You’re describing me. If it were up to me, the iPad would be even simpler than it is now.

I really don't have any issue with iPad being focused in non-technical users, but them Apple really should drop the "Pro" moniker in iPad and just stop using Apple Mx and go back to use Ax CPUs instead (and also, a sharp drop in price).

I think that is the main point of the article above, and also why so many people would want an iPad Pro to actually have Pro features [1].

[1]: Yes, I know about iPhone Pro, but at least iPhone Pro have some exclusive features that make sense for Pro users like USB 3.0 and ProRes camera features. However in the case of iPad Pro, what is actually the workflow that requires a better CPU? Final Cut? And that is it basically.

BTW, I would be happy if iPad OS at least exposed its hypervisor for applications, so UTM (https://docs.getutm.app/installation/ios/) would be useful in a non-jailbroken device.

But not even that, you are limited to using JIT unless you have a jailbroken device (or outdated versions of iOS).

A better SOC improves the workflow for music production, 3d modeling/sculpting, illustration, video editing, and probably many other pro workflows I'm not thinking of at the moment.

The fact that the iPad is a shitty development platform doesn't mean that it lacks pro features or people can't make use of the improvements to the CPU/GPU.

That as the article shows, are not that good because iPad OS sucks in lots of areas that Pros needs (e.g. File manager for people doing video editing).

I strongly agree with almost everything Federico complains about in this article, especially file management like you mention. It is a pain point. It doesn't mean iPads aren't great for a lot of these things.

I have different nitpicks about any system I use; it doesn't disqualify it from being legitimately good for X task.

> I strongly agree with almost everything Federico complains about in this article, especially file management like you mention. It is a pain point. It doesn't mean iPads aren't great for a lot of these things.

I think there is a difference between being "great" and "usable". I consider iPad usable for all those tasks, but to be great you actually need to offer more features to Pro users. Right now, the only Pro usage I think iPad are great is drawing, but in this case you can even get by with a first or second generation iPad Pro.

But maybe I am nitpicking, you are right that iPads are ok for some Pro users, but great would be too much.

I guess 'great' is pretty subjective. I think it's a great platform for musicians because it does things that either can't or aren't done on other platforms. One such example is the various touch interface based synthesizers like Borderlands Granular. It actually takes advantage of the form factor because it can assume it's a touch-based interfaced, unlike with Mac or PC.

It's not that it can't be made on PC; there's plenty of PCs with touch screens, but it's not.

It's also just very competent as a music making device in general. Yeah, it's a pain in the ass dealing with samples on iPadOS and iOS, which is why things like AudioShare [1] exist to help deal with the lackluster file management. But in most cases, you don't really need to touch that. There's a ton of great synthesizers, drum machines, and various different styles of music production groovebox/launchers/loopers/daws/mixers on it that just don't exist on other platforms. You can also use it to augment other platforms, through things like Logic Remote [2] or LK [3], which turns your iPad into a controller interface for Ableton Live.

It's not perfect, but neither is the Mac. or Linux or Windows or any other platform that is used for making music. I still think it's great, though.

[1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/audioshare/id543859300

[2] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/logic-remote/id638394624

[3] https://www.imaginando.pt/products/lk-ableton-live-and-midi-...

Yep, every step they take to make the UI closer to a desktop OS makes me less happy with it. Peak was iOS6.

Dex is basically an elaborate app. Telling people to buy a different device to get an app means there is a failure going on in what is offered. The dots don't connect.

Do you think Apple considers it "insanely successful" that the iPad has gone from over 41B in inflation-adjusted revenue over a decade ago, to 28B in 2023? Are articles like these pointing out the issues with the OS not a reflection that the product isn't meeting user's needs, and at least partially explaining the decline?

Lastly, do you think Apple shares your mantra of "If you want a [device] then get a [device]" when they developed the ability to run iOS/iPadOS apps on Apple Silicon Macs? iPads can run iOS apps too, why didn't Apple tell them to get an iOS device instead?

If you make a device that works and doesn't become quickly obsolete then yeah its sales will go down as more people get it.

> Lastly, do you think Apple shares your mantra of "If you want a [device] then get a [device]" when they developed the ability to run iOS/iPadOS apps on Apple Silicon Macs? iPads can run iOS apps too, why didn't Apple tell them to get an iOS device instead?

One is a computer, it's natural to give it more features but not the reverse...

It would be fine if there was a flurry of DEX tablets and a ton of competition in the market. Then the iPad could be a device on the side, the same way Apple monitors are a specific taste of monitors and very few people complain about what they can and cannot do.

Things is, there's very few competent tablets: basically two or three makers on the Windows side, the Samsung Ultra tablets, Xiaomi, and the iPad Pro. And right now the future or the Surface Pro line is pretty dicy, so the iPad becoming more competent would be more than welcome.

To your point, there could be more differenciation between the "pro" line and the regular iPads.

Pro work can be done in iPad. Audio production, photo processing, painting, 3D modeling and what have you.

The only pro thing that is being complained about here is programming but hey most people are not programmers. Don't let the HN echo chamber mislead you...

There is a lot of gotcha outside of the obvious stuff.

For instance iOS's process management model means your program gets suspended if it goes too long in the background. Let's say you want to write an email in fullscreen while exporting your superb 4K movie in the background, tough luck.

Idem if you want to have multiple programs running video content in parrallel (or even look at multiple videos at the same time. Short of using a dedicated app, the default ones won't help you)

The browser situation could get resolved as the EU has pressured Apple to do it, but there is still a lot of things that could get improved to help power users, even outside of our circles.

I suspect they want to expand the apple control of ios/ipados to the mac, instead of the user control of macos to ios/ipados (and the commercial non-control).

I don't like it. My purchasing habits wrt apple products has diminished and is now near zero.

Without their nonsense, I would purchase mac products without thinking as a trusted tool.

iOS security is good for consumption use cases.

Developers need flexibility, e.g. VMs isolated by Apple Silicon nested virtualization.

and "consumers" could continue, while more creative types (the crazy ones) could have a way to allow a few of their own binaries to run in the way they want.

Well never say never but doing this would completely destroy the ability to build software on a mac.

I don't understand this comment. Apple has will for many things. They could give you a rubber room to build software on a mac or even an ipad, but keep strings attached and not let you run it without asking permission (like ios now)

How often does Samsung Dex gets used?

Stage Manager does do this

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