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Comment by toyg | Hacker News Reader

The original idea is sound: "we are squeezing all tools into the iPad".

The problem is that you can't squeeze an object without resorting to animation. So instead they went for crushing, which carries destructive undertones. A lot of people have strong emotional attachments to objects like pianos and vinyl players; destroying them is a powerful trigger.

If this had been done with animation, with some djinn magically squeezing everything into an iPad, it would have been just fine.

This said, there is no such thing as bad publicity - here we are, talking about the umpteenth version of a product we would otherwise take for granted. The ad might have been distasteful but it did the job.

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There definitely is such a thing as bad publicity, I wish people would stop using that phrase to make dumb things sound smart. Of all the companies out there, Apple definitely doesn’t want to trade on negative sentiment, it clashes with their overall brand strategy. In particular this iPad Pro launch is riskier than normal, given that it has brand new screen tech and is the thinnest device they’ve ever made, and it’s possible they pulled this commercial to avoid creating associations between this iPad and the act of “crushing” things.

Furthermore I doubt that anyone on HN (except like 2 people who will definitely reply to this comment) who didn’t know about the new iPad Pro before this commericial learned about it from this post.

Allow me to be the first of the two to announce themselves.

I agree, though. Although I only learned of the product because of the outrage over the ad, it certainly hasn't moved me toward wanting to purchase one. And I'll actually be in the market for a tablet in a few months.

#2 checking in. I pay almost zero attention to what Apple does. I'll pay attention if they start allowing Mozilla to ship add-ons with Firefox so I can run adblock on mobile like on Firefox!

You can run ad-blockers on iOS Safari (they're called "Content Blockers", I use Firefox Focus's) granted you're still stuck with Safari/WebKit for the time being.

And although it's not Firefox, the Orion browser from Kagi supports Chrome and Firefox add-ons on iOS.

That's interesting! Does it work well, e.g. on YouTube ads?

#3 of a vast number: I don't pay attention to what Apple does, choose not to own any Apple products even though I do respect their technology, particularly Apple Silicon; would not have been aware of a launch of a new iPad if it weren't for this controversy.

Yep, I had considered getting an iPad. I probably wouldn't have, this doesn't prevent me bur it is a point in another directiom. Things like the Minis Forum V3 give me more options and the company knows "how to read the room".

More people know about iPad released a thinner version now than before the controversy.

Mission accomplished.

There is really no such thing as bad publicity.

Number of people who will stop buying Apple products due to this Ad : ZERO

Number of people who are aware of iPad Thin due to controversy : > ZERO

A small number of people shit on Apple/Google/Meta/Amazon all the time for every little thing

Edit : HN crowd downvoting a marketing concept. I must be right!

I disagree. I own zero apple products but pretty soon I will be purchasing a tablet for the kids.

I was looking at ipads, but this ad and the comments have reminded me why I dont like putting money in Apples pockets. So I shall definitely be buying android when I buy one.

I have a lot of Apple products, but my recent work projects on Android have brought me around a bit on the Pixel line; if I had to switch to Pixel I wouldn’t be mad (though I don’t intend on doing that any time soon). With that being said, I don’t know of any Android tablets that match the iPad in terms of quality or performance, and I’ve been watching the market closely for years (I would love a tablet I can do real programming work on). What Android tablet are you looking at?

Have you tried the Pixel Tablet? I'm on the fence mainly because I have very few tablet needs and my Samsung S6 Lite has been wonderful, but I love the idea of docked mode where it becomes a Google Home. It makes it incredibly useful as both a desk companion (love getting meeting notifications and such on a screen liek that), an alarm clock, a digital photo frame, a music player, a quick way to see my doorbell camera, etc.

I like the look of Lenovo Tab P11 or P12 etc

"No such thing as bad publicity" directly implies that brand goodwill doesn't have a tangible dollar value.

This is false, not least because this is something companies declare on financial reports.

Since my argument is “there is such a thing as bad publicity and I will die on this hill”, I’m going to shift from this sloppy ad rollout to an example that I think proves my case (that bad publicity is a thing that exists) pretty definitively.

Although it no doubt produced tons of brand awareness among people who had never heard of them, I doubt that the folks at Humane AI would argue that the recent flood of bad reviews or even the backlash against the bad reviews were helpful to them in the long term. Like sure, tons of people know about them now, perhaps they even sold a pin or two to the folks who heard about them through the controversy. But there’s a good chance they may not be able to stay solvent as a company long enough to actually capitalize on their increased brand recognition.

I agree with most of your comments here, but I actually don't think the Humane AI stuff is a good example.

By all accounts, the new iPad Pro is a good, solid product. The problem is that people don't like the ad.

The problem with Humane AI is not really "bad PR", it's fundamentally bad products. Or perhaps to put it a little more generously: as has been very common of late in the tech world, the Humane AI products are technologically interesting marvels that solve literally 0 problems people actually have and are basically worse in every way compared to a smart phone.

That is, the iPad Pro's problem is really just the PR. No amount of good PR could save Humane AI's products.

“Is there such a thing as Bad Publicity” would make for a good freakanomics podcast episode.

My 2c: when that addage was first coined, public outrage was much harder to mobilize.

Social media and globalization work hand in hand to make it easier for people to have an outsized impact.

Two recent instances I can think of: Budweiser and US campus protests regarding the war in Gaza.

The budweiser thing should dispel the phrase once and for all. They lost over a billion in sales apparently

I feel like it’s pretty easy to disprove. I mentioned Humane AI in another comment, so here I’ll use a different and more flamboyant example: the 2019 movie Cats.

After putting $85-110M into the production of the movie, Universal released a trailer that went super viral and had every person on the internet talking about how terrible it looked. When the movie actually came out there was a second viral wave of gawking. Did this drive tons of people to the theater so they revel in the movie’s epic badness for themselves? No, the movie (which had over a dozen stars and was based on a hit musical that is popular around the world) failed to make back its budget at the box office. For reference (in case someone tries to pull the “maybe it would’ve made less money without the negative publicity” card) Tom Hooper’s previous movie musical Les Miserables earned $442M on a $61M budget.

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats_(2019_film)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Mis%C3%A9rables_(2012_film...

The fat lady has not sung yet - terrible movies often become cult hits once they are "rediscovered" for their badness and prices go down. I wouldn't be surprised if Cats eventually became a streaming staple.

I expect the majority of people really aren't bothered about this though - just a vocal minority, so although maybe a bad ad for some, I expect the benefits of the publicity of this ad far outweight the downsides.

I wouldn't have paid any attention to a new iPad launch or known that it was the thinnest one yet, without this 'bad' press.

If anything, I'd say I'd be more likely to purchase a new iPad as a result

A vocal minority of artists and creatives who are precious about the tactile and aesthetic experiences of using the tools of their trades could also be called “Apple’s target market for the iPad Pro.” So Apple would definitely need to care about the sentiments their ads engender.

The publicity might be a short term win but there is a dangerous narrative for Apple that it feeds: that they are no longer a design-obsessed company that prizes art and creativity and channels that obsession to build the best products.

Also: Products version 15 are boring and the only way it generated awareness was through bad press, not features.

Totally agree. The people saying "but now we're talking about the iPad, mission accomplished!" isn't even marketing 101 grade.

Like saying that using the color red makes people think of a stop sign, so they won't buy your product.

>There definitely is such a thing as bad publicity, I wish people would stop using that phrase

the phrase "there's no such thing as bad PR" is meant to make you realize that there's more to PR than you... realize. It's in the style of something like a Buddhist koan. it's not meant to be taken literally or to an extreme. It's not a proof but it does describe a real phenomenon. You can't reject the phrase without rejecting its wisdom.

I hope, on that hill, you don't die as you plan to. Because you are very literal, aren't you.

Exactly. This saying is much like Confucius famous sayings in that you have to think it through, trying it both literally and symbolically, and move several steps forward logically to try and understand the wisdom it is conveying.

It's not saying literally that no publicity can ever be bad. That's obviously not true and is easily disproven nearly every single day by current events. It's a broader conveyance of truth regarding the difficulty of getting noticed in a world crowded with content. Even if it's "bad publicity" there are still benefits of becoming more well known, for example. Apple is one of the few companies where that probably won't help, but it doesn't "disprove" the saying and mean we should reject it.

I don't understand what you are responding to. The GP comment never said anything about "dying on a hill" or being overly literal. They weren't making some grand pronouncement that there's no wisdom behind the "there's no such thing as bad PR" saying. They just pointed out that in this specific case that the bad PR is most definitely undesired and not a net benefit, and that the "no such thing as bad PR" phrase is often overused in places where it's not warranted as a sort of lazy "sure, this is fine!" explanation.

one of his other comments did say it was a hill he was going to die on, which is "a saying", as "there's no such thing as bad PR" is a saying.

My issue is that people take the idea that “bad PR” can actually be good for a company (which is common knowledge these days) and just stop there. They don’t go a step further and contemplate where the phrase applies, where it doesn’t, and what makes those situations different. They just bend over backwards and try to figure out the way it applies in every situation (even if in reality, it doesn’t). It’s that line of thinking that I find annoying.

I think the phrase has outlived its usefulness. Nowadays when I see it used it’s often in exactly the kind of extreme or overly literal way you yourself criticize.

Bad PR works on controversial things, for example if someone wants to sell courses to become “Alpha Male”. People who are into that become suddenly aware of it.

Apple ad isn’t controversial because people react indifferent at best and very negative at worst. Everyone already knows what an ipad is.

Let's be honest here: people are going to watch the video on their iPhone, fleetingly think "well that's a weird ad, really did not like that..." and then move onto something else on their iPhone. Apple has been untouchable for many years now. Basically Trump "I can shoot a man on 5th Avenue and people will still vote for me" level

> The original idea is sound: "we are squeezing all tools into the iPad".

Hard disagree. Yes, I do agree that a big part of the emotional reaction to the ad were seeing all these beloved tools of craftsmanship being destroyed.

But another underlying current is people reaching the conclusion that they do not want all of their individual, sometimes quirky tools being subsumed under a single flat silicon panel. I'll just speak for myself, but I often find myself craving more real, physical interaction and not just something that exists on a screen.

Some of us actually crave a little more of the chaotic, interesting world of WALL-E over the sleek perfection of EVE (which was, somewhat unsurprisingly, reviewed and blessed by Jonathan Ive).

When your Brand is as valuable as Apple or Boeing, bad publicity is a thing.

They don't need to be known, but they need to maintain the positive values associated with their brand.

The Apple brand is their most valuable asset, they probably destroyed billions in brand value with the shitstorm around this horribly distasteful ad.

> they probably destroyed billions in brand value

So go short AAPL, Jim Cramer. My bold prediction is this ad does diddly to their bottom line. You really think people are going to boycott Apple over it?

I am not talking about stock, here.

Stock is short-sighted, and I don't expect any boycott.

The consequences of the slow degradation of a brand are measured in decades.

If you take a look at the Vision Pro, they didn't expect selling them like hot cakes, given the price, but from what I've heard they still missed their projections, by a long shot.

This pattern will repeat, one failed or tepid product launch at a time, eroding confidence, and ultimately, yes, the stock will plunge.

You're reading tea leaves now. Meanwhile Apple has actually measurable problems like plummeting iPhone sales in China, and I guarantee that's not because of a stupid ad.

To be clear, I don't think the ad itself is the issue, I think this is pretty benign given their scale.

But I think they have a leadership problem. Tim Cook is a glorified bean counter, not a creator, not a visionary, and it shows.

I know that most people are looking at the stock and will say that everything is fine. Sure. I am looking at the products, and except for M series of SoC, this is all boring.

Apple's valuation is up over 1000% since Tim Cook became CEO. His greatest failing is that he isn't Steve Jobs, but most corporations would literally kill to have a bean counter like Tim Cook. Yes, he's in the hot seat, and Wall Street is very "What have you done for me today?", but I don't see shareholders calling for his head.

All empires fall, but today is not that day for Apple.

> Apple's valuation is up over 1000% since Tim Cook became CEO

GE's valuation was up ~4500% during Jack Welch's tenure as CEO.

You two are talking about separate things.

Parent is talking about brand goodwill.

You're talking about revenue.

The two are different, but not unrelated. One reason Apple can run the margins and move the product that it does is because it's Apple. If it were "random company" and didn't benefit from its RDF, those numbers wouldn't be sustainable.

Which, in a nutshell, is the Tim Cook problem -- you can make all the sales numbers go in the right direction, but that's not the product magic that Apple has historically benefited from (and been valued at).

Executive dysfunction seems the root issue. Tim, Phil, and Craig have been running on Steve and Jony's fumes for years, and now have no ideas beyond incrementing numbers and buying back stock. It's like ol' Gil all over again.

Apple is the default choice for grandparents again, but they don't even have the schools anymore (Google conquered edu with Chromebooks).

I am not getting such horrible vibes from the ad.

Maybe the strongest sense is that the iPad comes from the island of broken toys?

Slightly less emphatic but more sinister is that an iPad cannot help but involve itself in the destruction of the arts.

I do agree that the ad does not have any observable moral upside, and it was a mistake to run it.

But then again, if Apple did have a YouTube collection of ads that they chose not to run and discussion of why, it might be easier to trust them. They are so opaque at the moment that trust is a very big ask.

>Stock is short-sighted

stock is not short sighted. It does react quickly to information (which means it was too late to short a while ago) but to think that you can make money by not buying stock now, but waiting to buy it at another time is really terrible advice, and it's been refuted.

To believe that stock is short-sighted is to believe that investers as a group are dumber than you are because they've put their money into the market but you know better.

> To believe that stock is short-sighted is to believe that investers as a group are dumber than you are because they've put their money into the market but you know better.

There is a saying you may not be familiar with, "Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

what's your definition of irrational?...

the market doesn't know the future, it just incorporates current knowledge and opinion. Is AI a bubble right now? the vast riches afforded those who make the right call when AI is ready is justification enough for current enthusiasm, no irrationality needs to be hypothesized. And like people who lost their bet on the 49ers to win the Superbowl, there's no reason to posit irrationality if a bet doesn't pay.

The stock market, or any kind of market really, is nothing else than a huge distributed pricing machine.

It is incredibly good at doing that. But it is short sighted. It is able to integrate risks to some extent, on a short time scale, but it is very bad at processing second or third order effects, and can't do strategy.

In other words, the famous invisible hand is completely unable to predict the future.

Humans are also notoriously bad at that, but still better. This is why we have states and CEOs.

at the beginning of every day, the market has a greater probability of going up than down, and a risk adjusted positive expected value (which is a different thing)

Therefore, your money should always be "in the market", not out of the market. Therefore, it's very difficult to make the case that the market is short sighted. I think what you are trying to say is that immediate risks are better understood than longer term, so the more distant future has higher volatility.

I would not bet against any company on the basis of people whinging on the internet unless it's about their actual product or service being bad at it's job. (e.g. Humane and Rabbit are probably doomed)

Consider that when talking about something measured in decades the examples that come to mind are things people said in the last few weeks. But what were people talking about a decade ago? Which of those things actually reflected the long term trajectory of the company?

My Gen A son enjoys his Meta Quest and jokes about the Vision Pro.

I love the name play with "If it's Boeing, I'm not going".

Waiting for something like that for Apple. Let me get my popcorn...

How about “causing walled garden headaches since Eden”

Doesn’t really ring, no rhyming bling…

It does in native Ayapaneco

Translating poetry is tricky at best…worse if transliteration and cross-cultural currents pull in multiple directions…

Maybe "crapple" ...

"If it's Apple, it's crapple" was my first stab as well. Just didn't have the same je ne sais quoi to me about it though.

The app'll work best with genuine apple handcuffs.

I do like the direction this started if not the finish

What's tragic is that it was originally coined "If it ain't boing, I ain't going" back when their brand stood for quality.

But that's the history that makes the flipping of the script so stark. Anybody embedded deeply enough in the company should be aware of that exact loss of reputation.

And if the company fails to know its own history well enough that even they are missing the point that speaks volumes about how they value institutional knowledge.

The creative tools just had to be sucked in like a wormhole. It's just surprising it got this far without someone intervening. Shows that someone high up couldn't be backed down.

Exactly. Part of the reason this is news is that this in an incredibly obvious and rare own goal on Apple marketing's part.

To the extent that someone high up who greenlit it should be fired.

How do you know...

   - Creatives are a target customer
   - Creatives are concerned about AI
   - Everyone is concerned about AI

... and possibly approve a literal machine crushing (in slow motion detail!) instruments of human creativity?!

That'd be like making a tobacco ad that features a pair of lungs aging...

No need to destroy. They could have definitely merged the items like a rainbow melting all into the iPad. Those visuals are pretty common.

That would have have looked nice, but it wouldn't have touched people.

This is very graphic and elicits a much stronger emotion. I think that's why it was chosen.

The irony is that it know kind of feels like more honest then it's supposed to be, digital tools crushing tradition artistry.

That “unintended” honesty may be too close to home, and been a catalyst to the outrage.

I mentioned in another thread, if they showed AI “crushing” the artist (ie replacing) that would have been the powder keg.

There is absolutely bad publicity when you already have the world's most valuable brand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_valuable_brands)

There is no such thing as bad publicity when you are not yet established. When you are already a recognized and popular brand, such as Apple or AB InBev, it can hurt revenue, such as how AB InBev suffered from lower revenue following their own advertisement backlash.

This exactly. There are many other ways to express "squeezing into one" but both bizarrely and shockingly Apple (or whichever ad agency) went for "crushing with hydraulic press" instead. How did everyone miss on the negative undertone before this ad was released?

Could be extrapolating this incident too much but it feels it encapsulates the transformation of Apple from this quirky, unconventional upstart into a monopolistic leviathan the past 2 decades. There's also a sense of hubris at suggesting your single electronic device can replace all those creative tools.

A djinni with Tim Apple's face would be funny. Comes out of a home pod and magics the whole recording studio into an iPad. Probably too whimsical for an Apple's taste though.

There is a growing backlash against technology and its harmful effects though. People are rightfully getting suspicious about that handful of tech companies and their intentions. Few are willing to give up on technology, nor should they as it's futile to fight progress, but the debate and guard rails are being shaped, and the tone deafness of some of these big technology companies is not helping their cause.

The astronomical user base of companies like Google and Apple should not be an indicator about the actual goodwill of people towards these brands. Getting away with something does not mean your behaviour isn't causing increasing animosity and feeding general discontentment.

> If this had been done with animation, with some djinn magically squeezing everything into an iPad, it would have been just fine.

It already was an animation. So they could have taken your approach instead.

Have you confirmed there are no practical effects in this — definitely it seemed like a lot had to be animated from the timing of events, to cutesy thinks like the smile ball squeeze.

Like if this was hand drawn animation, would anyone care? I think people think real instruments (even ones that were junk, ie old pianos are worthless) were destroyed.

Do you have a source that it was animated or are you just making it up to sound smarter?

I was replying to the previous posters who said it was already animation. There certainly is some animation at play but was wondering of the mix of practical effects and CGI.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some practical effects at play but it honestly looked too simplified to be real. Crushing a lot of stuff like that would be messy and ugly. Also unsafe with things like broken metal and shattered glass. It’s feels more like CGI. And personally I think that would be the better way to do it. As someone who’s watched a weirdly high number of YouTube videos of things getting crushed by presses, it’s not pretty like that video was.

If, and if think that’s a big if that was mainly practical effects, then those props would almost certainly be fake instruments made from different materials that crush in more visually appealing ways.

> The original idea is sound: "we are squeezing

Really? I wonder how it got titled Crush! then.

> The problem is that you can't squeeze an object without resorting to animation.

Not a problem. The ad isn't short of animation.

> there is no such thing as bad publicity

I's say the apology shows Apple disagrees.

The video is cool, but yeah, watching all these great items being crushed, is wow.

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