What are third places? How do I find one?
vox.com
vox.com
This is all they have to say about this, which is unfortunate, because it dramatically understates just how important religion has been as a community builder and just how much of the loss of the third space is actually just a loss of religion. In 1999 70% of Americans were a member of a formal organized church/synagogue. In 2023 that number was down to 45% [0]. That is an absolutely staggering difference.
Some commenters have noted that it's hard to find a third space in suburbia. This is true if and only if you ignore churches as an option. In your average US suburb or small town you'd have a hard time finding a home that isn't within walking distance of some church or another. These were the third space for most of America for most of history, and they were very accessible.
No matter your opinion on what the future of organized religion should be, it's weird to have a discussion about the disappearance of third spaces in the US while only giving a token nod to our single most significant historical source of community.
[0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/358364/religious-americans.aspx
I think the article gets it right in that the collapse of American third places goes beyond just church attendance. Ideal third places are things like guild halls, bars, parks; places where you can show up and no one asks why you’re there or what you did today. The leveling and inclusive aspect is key: you need to be able to bring anyone who might otherwise need a third place, and they must be greeted as just another conversation member.
This is how high school Super Smash Brothers days were at Blaine’s house: unlocked door, say hi
I fully believe you that church never felt like your third place. That disconnect between generations is a large part of why churches have declined. But speaking as a parent of small children—if your parents were allocating two nights a week to go hang out at church with church friends, that was absolutely a third place for them. Parents simply don't have enough time with other adults to justify hanging out for hours two nights a week with adults that we don't enjoy chatting with.
> The leveling and inclusive aspect is key: you need to be able to bring anyone who might otherwise need a third place, and they must be greeted as just another conversation member.
A month ago I attended a random Protestant denomination with my father-in-law that we'd never been to before in our lives and had no intention of joining. We went to the gathering after the service and were welcomed as part of the group. They had lots of questions for us because we drove across the country to get there, but there wasn't anything weird about it, it was just people hanging out chatting.
I do want to clarify that I'm not saying that there weren't other third spaces that have also declined. But church was the universal third space that almost everyone had and generally assumed that you had. You might also have been a Freemason or a member of the Elks Lodge or have gone to hang out at a coffee shop, but the rest of our third space infrastructure was all built on the assumption that church was already there filling a lot of the needs.
What??? Have you been to an American suburb? Yes, there are churches all over the place, but they can _never_ be walked to. Nothing can be walked to. Maybe they are so ubiquitous that it's only a 5-10-min drive, but that's the best you are gonna get.
Obviously this becomes harder if you need a particular denomination, but a lot of people just attend whatever's closest, and that's all my statement claimed—that there is a church within walking distance of basically everyone.
You're welcome to try this elsewhere and see if you get different results.
No I literally don't know a single person who goes to church so... I don't really have a leg to stand on here. :D
Also, most Churches plan many community events including volunteering opportunities and have other things like support groups. They will accept your request to join any of these, no question asked. You can check their websites for these details.
You are more than welcome to attend everything including Mass as an Atheist, if you feel like you need a place for solemnity, you can just sit in the back and observe or follow along!
P.S I'm a Roman Catholic but pretty much all Protestant Churches operate more or less the same.
> If you do hope to stay, expect to keep spending. The low-cost luxuriating necessary for healthy third places isn’t considered profitable.
A lot of people struggle with this after college and a social club (sport, dining etc.) is usually the best way to keep your social life going. But yeah you usually have to value and invest in it, which maybe people aren't doing so much as prices have increased in the physical world while prices for entertainment over the wire has decreased.
I also think communities (third places FTA) that enable these friendships need to be, to some extent, closed or invite-only. I feel like as a social network grows each individual edge is a little weaker, which is the reverse incentive of developers of social networks and explains why socialising over the Internet feels the way it does.
Wait, what!? I don't frequent Starbucks but this is insane to me. Where is this happening?
To another comment about this being all about lack of walk ability in many places I’m also not sure that being able to walk around an urban core suddenly makes it a social center absent some persistent stimulus.
My experience is groups of friends and activity partners generally tend to happen without close physical proximity.
Obviously, there is no objectively true ranking, just people’s opinions.
Tier 1: LA, NYC, SF, Chicago, Seattle
Tier 2: Denver, DC, Austin, Minneapolis, San Diego, Houston, Philadelphia
I'm in Madison, WI which is barely a city but ranks high in desirability pretty consistently and has housing prices to match.
(Shout out to any of the folks who used to frequent Greenhouse Effect in the early aughts, before it got bought out and turned into a purely profit driven venture by Jimmy and his dad).
I mean, the high-rent areas that exist today are also insane, and them creating extra insanity is just expected.
People just stand around the tables were? Are they ok with this? Does it fit more people?
Time will tell if Starbucks fractures into Sitbucks and Standbucks.
In response, they updated corporate policy so that you don't have to buy anything to occupy a chair: https://www.eater.com/2018/5/21/17375806/starbucks-no-purcha... https://stories.starbucks.com/press/2020/use-of-the-third-pl...
Predictably, every chair is now occupied by a sleeping homeless person.
So now their choice is to either remove all the chairs, or potentially be mean to someone, and receive a firestorm of criticism. You can see which one they chose.
See also how MTA has removed all the benches from its stations, for the same reason: https://hellgatenyc.com/train-stations-should-have-benches
And yes, certainly the kind of people visiting them as well as the kind of people working there has fallen along with their price niche.
More efficient farming has largely offset inflation just as with most other agricultural commodities resulting in fairly flat prices over time barring occasional spikes.
Also independent coffee joints generally get pricing wrong from a business perspective. But that’s a different question.
The transition from urban to suburban living (partially fuelled by cost of living being subsidized in suburbia, and partially caused by NIMBY advocates blocking the development of new housing to keep housing prices affordable in cities) completely destroyed any chance Americans had to be independent from their cars.
Instead what they have in the states are a bunch of disjointed metro areas that demand a car to do anything. So teenagers need to be chauffeured around and lose independence because of the reliance on parent transport.
I think that feeds into the mental health crisis but it also makes third places more expensive (fewer people using them than if the area was more densely populated) and more hostile (housing unaffordability drives homelessness and the use of third places as homes for the homeless.)
You’ll find an exceptionally strong correlation between viable third places and cities that don’t demand that you own a car.
It's important to tell the full story because similar dynamics drive our current stumbling blocks.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/00225266231190177?i...
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3797364#
Likewise, people didn’t build highways for the purpose of razing minority neighborhoods. They wanted the highways, and it was easier to build them through poor neighborhoods than to build them through richer ones.
Again, European cities did or tried to do many of the same things as American cities in terms of building freeways: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/motorway-remov.... Cities like Seattle and Portland that had virtually no minorities in the 1960s also built freeways through downtown. The existence of minorities isn’t what caused people to build those freeways. That’s like saying wet streets cause rain.
You are categorically wrong about Seattle: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5bbc63a6ef9d45f787f4bde...
>Robert Moses, the construction coordinator of New York City and an influential urban planner, believed that highways should be built in order to destroy black neighborhoods. "Our categorical imperative is action to clear the slums," he said in 1959.
>Seattle's highway planners took Moses's idea to heart. They placed the intersection and interchange of two major planned freeways, the I-90 and the RH Thomson in the center of the Judkins Park neighborhood of the Central District which was 85% black at the time.
>the urban renewal project and the placement of the freeways was a deliberate plan to destroy Black Seattle and eviscerate an area seen by white Seattleites as a ghetto.
And also Portland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albina,_Portland,_Oregon
https://web.archive.org/web/20210516160733/https://pdxschola...
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/black-history/black-c...
You need to do more research. You are horribly misinformed.
They don’t say that. The two academic papers you linked say that was their effect. And the blog posts you linked above don’t offer any proof for their assertions of motivation. For example, the article about Seattle cites statements by Robert Moses in New York City with no attempt to connect the two.
> The highways would not have been built if they couldn't raze poor and/or black or minority neighborhoods (it should be noted that many were thriving economically, if unconnected politically),
Again, we know that’s not true because highways were built through cities that had no significant minority populations. What minorities were they trying to oppress when they built freeways through Düsseldorf? https://twitter.com/SDuct/status/1456590650112159746. What minorities are they trying to oppress in Cairo where they’re building freeways through downtown? https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2020/10/08/....
Japan built expressways through Tokyo—one of the most racially homogenous large cities in the world—in the 1950s as well: https://tourism-road.or.jp/drive_guide_en/%E3%81%93%E3%81%93.... Who were they trying to oppress?
You’re the one who is horribly misinformed, trying to project an America-centric racial narrative onto something that was a global phenomenon driven by people’s preferences for the low density living enabled by cars.
In the US, Robert Moses was one of the foremost leaders of the urban renewal project. "He was a leading proponent of the idea that the best way to eradicate the supposed slums where Black people lived was to build highways through them." , quoting https://www.history.com/news/interstate-highway-system-infra... , which then quotes Moses:
> “Our categorical imperative is action to clear the slums,” Moses said in a 1959 speech. “We can’t let minorities dictate that this century-old chore will be put off another generation or finally abandoned.” Moses, who was also the chairman of the New York City Slum Clearance Committee, said that the highway construction must “go right through cities and not around them.”
We can see how "urban renewal" is code for segregation in https://papers.ssrn.com/Sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID3715149_cod...
> Shortly following the adoption of the Interstate Highway Act, however, highway builders began to drop the pretense of urban renewal and vocally embraced their racial agenda as thriving Black communities were destroyed and removed. In many states, highway builders went out of their way to avoid white homes and community institutions but also went out of their way to route the highway right through the heart of Black communities.95 With federal funding in hand, “[t]he bulldozer and the wrecker’s ball went to work” on Black America.96 The destruction of a Black community to make way for Interstate 95 in Miami, Florida, provides an example of how construction of the interstate highway system was used to actualize a racial agenda to destroy vibrant Black communities. ... The destruction of Overtown was the realization of a decades- long campaign by white business leaders to remove Black residents and claim that land to expand Miami’s central business district.
The history shows the city leaders had for decades wanted to push the Black population out of what was originally called 'Colored Town' and "the Federal Highway Act provided the opportunity Miami’s leaders needed to seize Overtown and push out Black residents" - while 90% of the costs were paid for by the federal government.
It then gives other examples, like in Birmingham, AL where Interstate 65 was built to physically separate white and black neighborhoods, and in Atlanta, GA where:
> “wherever the highway[ ] system could possibly serve a racial function, it was developed with that in mind also.”160 Indeed, white Atlanta residents regularly called on the mayor and city officials to use the highway system as a series of racial barriers.161 The City’s white leaders did not hide this purpose.
Are there non-racial reasons to justify urban highways? Sure! But in the US as https://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar... writes:
> Engineers and governments built the freeways through Black communities partially to reinforce the waning segregationist identity of much of the country and advance the interests of white residents and partially because the monetary value of the land was so low. The construction both symbolically and physically reinforced racist policy without explicitly calling it so. Urban renewal was a gateway for a new wave of structural racist policies and projects. ..
> This wasn’t to say there weren’t legitimate grounds for many urban renewal initiatives. ... However, to end there would disregard the immense racism interwoven into the planning process. While racial capitalism and neoliberalism informed suburbanization and urban redevelopment, specific ramifications of those manifested in the highway infrastructure development. To begin, the use of eminent domain by the government to seize the land for the highway to sit on was more than implicitly racial. Geographic areas, often called African-American cultural enterprise zones, were economically robust. Still, the government and planners saw the opposite, marking much of the land occupied by Black people as low value. It was relatively easy to deploy eminent domain on those properties because they could argue that the government could put the land to better use for the larger public good, and it wasn’t incredibly costly either. This resulted in the widespread displacement of people who were most often Black or Brown and of low socioeconomic status. Urban planners, engineers, and local governments explicitly warned about this in a conference convened by the Highway Research Board in 1958 when they said that members of those non-white and low-income communities were facing the “greatest potential injury” from the displacement caused by the Interstate Highway System. ...
> In 1969, Nashville civic officials deliberately curved I-40 to avoid a white community. Highway planners in Birmingham, Alabama, did the same thing when planning the path of Interstate 59. Consequently, entire communities were leveled; Saint Paul saw its Rondo neighborhood torn in half by the Interstate Highway System, L.A.’s Sugar Hill, Syracuse its 15th ward, and more, all facing the grim reality that was a new wave of segregation.
>The benefits and burdens of our transportation system – highways, roads, bridges, sidewalks, and public transit – have been planned, developed, and sustained to pull resources from Black communities that are subsequently deployed and invested to the benefit of predominantly white communities and their residents.
>Again, we know that’s not true because highways were built through cities that had no significant minority populations.
You said this about Seattle and Portland, supposing (incorrectly) that there were no minority neighborhoods to raze. It suggests one of two conclusions:
a) There were minority (if not racial, then ethnic, or class) populations that were displaced in order to build the highways in Cairo, and Dusseldorf, and Tokyo, the histories of which we're not privy to due to some combination of a language barrier wrt applicable sources, and an incentive on the part of local historians not to include that history in the foreign-facing record (for diplomatic and face-saving reasons). To disprove this, general demographic statistics aren't enough; you would need specific information about the geographic locations in question - in particular, demographic history and qualitative information about that demography. I don't think you have that.
b) The American history of highway construction is singular, if not at least abnormal. This is the more likely option, because of America's globally abnormal geographic and population size, demographic history, history of municipal development, history of transit development, and automobile-related policy. To put it simply: most other countries don't have the incentives and means to use redevelopment as an explicit tool of displacement. (China does, and unsurprisingly: https://www.fmreview.org/destination-europe/dube).
>trying to project an America-centric racial narrative onto something that was a global phenomenon driven by people’s preferences for the low density living enabled by cars.
You're projecting an America-centric narrative about the role of the auto in the average person's life onto populations with very different circumstances and outlooks. You're categorically wrong, and it might be more useful for you to ask why you're clinging to this incorrect assessment of America's racial and political history.
Lower replies which provide greater context to this statement.
Before freeways, there was a huge rural population. 60% in 1900, still 36% by 1950. If your theory was correct there should have been a massive mental health crisis in rural areas during that period.
In fact, with respect to the topic of third places, I was recently looking at an old township map of where my family's farm is located from the 1800s. What really stood out was that there was a church found approximately every mile.
A little surprising by today's standards, but stands to reason when you think about it. I mean, what else were those people going to do? There wasn't much else to do other than socialize with your closest neighbours, providing sufficient concentration for a third place to emerge. Now imagine putting some kind of social centre every mile in those suburbs today. I don't see it working out too well.
My grandparents owned farms, my parents and stepparents all grew up on them. What they did was work.
Not Americans. The state. Town planning. Subsidizing. Not the people.
I do not doubt that there were places where this happened, but speaking about it as some absolute is simply disingenuous and untrue. For example, San Francisco is the birthplace of our cultural concept of freeway revolts, but San Francisco's 1950s freeway plan was intentionally routed to avoid bisecting any of the City-and-County's residential districts.
Check out this composite map I just whipped up and you should be able to see how the planned freeways were routed along district boundaries, not through them: https://i.imgur.com/MSbpF5e.jpeg
Sources:
— https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/wp-content/uploads/... (base layer)
— https://i0.wp.com/thefrontsteps.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/... (33% opacity)
I specify “residential” districts because SOMA is bisected but SOMA was all warehouses and freight railroad yards at the time so there was no reason to care. Even the famously-hated Embarcadero Freeway was on formerly-CA-state-owned land where the “State Belt” waterfront industrial railroad ran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Belt_Railroad https://i.imgur.com/Mq3mWQr.jpeg
1. Third places are few and far between.
2. People have lost the will and/or ability to spontaneously socialize with strangers around them.
I don't see any realistic solution to this problem. The convenience of online "socialization" is too much for people to resist and I don't think most people understand what a poor substitute that is for actual human interaction.
This is why so many friendships and relationships come out of work and school.
For me, it happened by accident, first in the techno music scene (clubs and parties are third places), and then again in the poker scene in Las Vegas. 100% of my local friends in Vegas are math/strategy nerds.
People haven't stopped going outside. Certainly if you give some other reason to get together (to play a sport, to listen to bands play music, whatever) on a frequent basis, then yes, socialization is bound to occur as part of that, but that is not the same as having a place centred around socialization; a place where you can turn up when you feel like it and find other people there also waiting to socialize.
The trick of the third place is that it is a destination. But perhaps you are recognizing why the third place is difficult to support: There are a million other places to socialize. A destination isn't necessary.
> In a car-dominated world there are no such things as chance encounters
Why not? Hell, just last night I was driving my car and noticed the aurora, so I stopped to look at it, and then someone else came along and stopped too. We had a good 20 minute chat before parting ways. Without cars, I would have probably been at home and probably wouldn't have talked to anyone.
You need loose connections to make a third place functional whatsoever, and those loose connections cannot emerge when everyone is going from steel box to drywall box to steel box.
Your example is a great argument but not for the point you’re trying to make. People talk when they are given the chance to talk in a low stakes environment. It took an extremely rare natural event to get you to stop your car and by golly, look, people talked!
People prefer to socialize with those they know, but you have to start somewhere. That's where the third place is an effective tool and the neighbourhood pub is, indeed, especially great for that because, if all else fails, the bartender will talk to you. And the bartender will introduce you to other patrons and get the conversation started. That's their job!
However, it is clear that the neighbourhood pub is also a dying breed. I expect in large part because parents are now hyper focused on the activities of their kids and using that time with other parents as their own social life. Additionally, young adults are now going to college, which brings its own social venues. That leaves a small gap between college and having kids, and maybe a small gap as one enters into retirement (although I would argue that this group is still fairly well served in the third place arena), along with a small segment of the population who remain childless, which doesn't leave all that many people to even support a third place realistically. These days there are an endless number of places to socialize, creating much fragmentation. A third place struggles when you find such fragmentation. It turns out that third places are more appealing when one third place has 20 people in it rather than when 20 third places each have one person inside.
> People talk when they are given the chance to talk in a low stakes environment.
Yes, you captured my point well. Cars don't change this. More often than not they will get you to that low stakes environment.
> It took an extremely rare natural event to get you to stop your car and by golly, look, people talked!
The natural event may have been somewhat rare (although not all that rare around here), but stopping the car wasn't particularly rare. Unless I'm on a determined mission where nobody is getting in my way, ventures out in the car usually lead to meeting other people. And when I'm that determined, I'm not stopping while out walking either, so it's not the car that is significant.
Or is it that the places are too common?
When I lived in the big city, there were all kinds of places that could have been the third place, but with so many options to choose from nothing ever established itself as the place to be. People would just aimlessly bounce around to them all instead of settling on one place to consistently show up to.
Now that I live in a rural area, where there are only a few places to go – period – everyone seems to congregate around them, and thus finding that third place is quite easy.
It's also worth comparing cities with some public (boulevards alongside commerce) vs mostly privatized space.
What is intrinsically valuable then: third spaces, diversity, or individual health? It feels like the first has the most value in service of the second, which is really just a supplement for the third. Almost like we stopped believing we can convince people to get on the same page about anything that looks like a shared value...
Also much respect to the persistence of patronizing Vox-speak in 2024: "to develop what are known as bridging ties" Known to who? "Studies have shown that" Studies where?
Satire, in any other universe.
It's weird how all of the sudden in 2024 people have completely forgotten how things work. There is a local symphony because of the people that buy season passes and attend fundraisers. People don't buy season passes to see every performance, they do it to support having XYZ. When I lived in Santa Cruz we bought season passes to the State Parks, Monterey Symphony, Monterey Aquarium, and others because we wanted them to exist. We attended fundraisers for things like museums, etc. My parents did similar. It seems like now people just expect everything to be there 'in case they happen to want to drop in'. It doesn't work that way. Someone has to actively keep things going both by running them and by funding them (and create them initially). I think the next generation is either just too used to 'someone else' doing all that, or they really don't understand that someone else did it in the past and think things just magically existed. It's the equivalent of growing up and being shocked you have to pay for your own food, with your own money.
I think part is also having so many 'free passes' people forget this stuff takes money. 'Free state park pass if you have kids' is a great idea, but families are the people that use the parks the most. Families are the people that originally banded together to do fundraisers. To build the trails. Not passing on funding/maintaining something to the next generation ensures it's death when the older people pass. At some point it has to stop being 'other people' that take care of making sure all the stuff you enjoy exists and is maintained. Free park days, totally. Free park pass and it just becomes expected, like state parks always existed and always will somehow. No, they exist because people pushed to create them, fundraised/crowdsourced to create them, and fundraised/crowdsourced to maintain them. When I was a kid we had community social events. And most of those events were also fundraisers for things that benefited the community. It seems like people now expect all the stuff that in the past the community fundraised for to just magically exist/stay forever. Now fundraisers all seem to be a very specifically charity versus general 'build the community. I remember my grandparents town holding events (which brought people out, like dances, concerts in the park, etc) in order to fundraise to add a beautiful fountain to downtown. I bet people today think that fountain just magically came into existence and 'someone' should pay to maintain it (and don't understand how the trust the does maintain it was funded and how precarious it's existence is).
Edit: this is already too long but here's a better example. When was the last time you went to your local library when they were having a book sale? You don't go because you want a warn out copy of a random book you are barely interested in, you go because you believe in local third spaces. You buy worn out random books you barely have interest in because you want your library to exist. If you can't go do that and spend the $1 a book on that, the future is really bleak for society. So I will ask again, when was the last time you did that? They sell off old books multiple times a year. If we can't count on the HN community types to go do this multiple times a year to help out their local library we are doomed. Go buy crappy old books. Go buy starter plants from your local horticulture garden's/parks department's fundraiser. Buy a season pass to your local/state parks. Buy season tickets to things you enjoy having around.
To the gym, to my favourite cafe, walking alone in a random direction, doesn't particularly matter.
Plus dance classes and events at least three times of week.
No longer dealing with sleep issues and symptoms of depression.
Plus dance classes and events at least three times of week.
No longer dealing with sleep issues and symptoms of isolation.
Not spending 2h on unnecessary commute is a big bonus too.
Make some friends first. Be the type of person that people want around. Then the third place will naturally form
We thrive when we are doing well in our roles. Learn your role. Execute well.