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Comment by jmward01 | Hacker News Reader

Is this a transition period for the industry? Are people now only buying based on it being the car they need vs the idea of the car they want? Electric is clearly the now. It is practical and competitive and getting better by the day so maybe it isn't special anymore and maybe the Tesla brand premium is falling because of that. I know that I for one haven't bought one for two big reasons:

1) I haven't bought a new car in my life. I always buy used. Electric and used don't normally go together, especially with the 'your car is a subscription' model. 2) The trend of connected cars and 0 privacy is keeping me from purchasing anything connected. Is this a significant factor for others too?

These two reasons aren't specific to Tesla, but my impression is that they are worse for Tesla than other car makers.

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I think we’re seeing market saturation at work. I suspect that most of the people that want, can afford, and are able to make an EV work for their needs already own them.

The truth is EVs are still more expensive than ICE vehicles, have significantly less range, and are a hard sell for rural America and anyone who doesn’t have the ability to charge at home.

I so badly wanted an EV, but ultimately decided against it in part because of the range limitations. We live in a rural city. The next closest major cities are 2.5 to 3.5 hours drive away at highway speeds.

Technically, several EVs could make this drive in ideal conditions, but it’d be stretching it. In the winter, we’d have to charge.

Unfortunately, there only a single charger at the ideal range for us. Even the gap between the next two closest chargers is uncomfortably close to max range. We’d likely need to stop a total of 3 times to make these drives. THEN, we’d also need to drive an extra 20-30 minutes at our destination to top off for around town driving.

It’s looking like PHEV are going to be the only practical option for the foreseeable future.

While I agree with just about everything you are saying, rural Americans definitely have the ability to charge their electric vehicles. In fact it's a huge selling point when the nearest gas station is 30 miles away. Even if you don't have access to grid power, solar charging at level 1 and 2 is still a thing. Now, if you don't have enough range to make it into town and there are no chargers? That's a huge deal.

A lot of people truly underestimate the distance between towns in some rural areas of America. Another major issue is that rural areas are frequently subject to extended weather related power outages that can last days or even weeks.

Plus you can just store a few gallons of gas at home for emergencies.

Diesel is awesome. It doesn't go bad like gas does. This is part of why rural areas tend to have more Diesel implements and vehicles than urban areas. You can park a 1000 gallon tank of diesel and not worry about it turning into varnish. Although the concern about someone stealing it is still there...

However, solar and battery backup is getting real popular as well. If you have a ton of land, for about $15000 you can provision a 6-kw system that will keep your freezers running without needing fuel deliveries. Also it's a lot easier to maintain than a backup generator that doesn't start when the town drunk hits the only pole servicing your area 20 miles away.

This used to be the case, but suburbia is spreading almost everywhere now. I don't think you are ever more than 100 miles from a Walmart in most of the USA. Unless you are intentionally finding a remote location in Montana or Alaska... The distance in time can be pretty bad though if you are forced to do 35 on a dirt road for 50 of those miles.

I want an EV but I rent and my landlord won't bother to have a charger installed. I even have an existing 120v socket running next to where I park so it would be pretty trivial to install. But he pays for electricity (no separate meter) so he's disincentivized from doing so.

Ultimately I would be the ideal user of an electric car - 99.99% of my trips are less than 200 miles. But I suspect that many people are held back by being renters and not having access to charging at home. Unless that problem gets fixed (and I strongly doubt it will; landlords that install chargers will probably mark electricity up 5-10x so that it's just slightly cheaper than gas) then electric car adoption among renters will be tepid at best.

If there's already an outlet you can just use a level 1 charger. No need to install anything, they plug in a regular 120V outlet.

They're pretty slow though, only adding a few miles per hour of charging, but if you're not driving much or can charge overnight then it could work.

> The trend of connected cars and 0 privacy is keeping me from purchasing anything connected. Is this a significant factor for others too?

This is the sole reason why I will not buy any new car (electric or otherwise).

If you're on PG&E for your electricity and you'd be using the grid to charge your car, a gas vehicle is cheaper per-mile than electric at the current kWh prices. And that will probably be true for many years to come. That's a reason #3 to consider as well.

Apparently PG&E is an American power company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Gas_and_Electric_Com...

Here in Scotland on Octopus tariffs charging an EV is about a quarter of the price of an efficient ICE. About £0.03/mile.

I have a theory that Tesla fucked up by getting the industry to standardize on their chargers. Now I don't need a Tesla to use the least obnoxious charger network.

If the charger construction and maintenance arm of Tesla is robust enough to keep the company in the black, that might not be a bad thing overall. But it's going to shift their mix.

It will free up capacity in their battery plants and it'll be interesting to see how this affects what verticals they chase. More power banks? Power banks at charging stations to allow charge locations to have more chargers (peak shaving)? More grid stabilization sites?

Are there companies that are making better electric cars than Tesla?

I'm genuinely curious. The vast majority of electrics I see in my city are Teslas with a small sprinkling of Hyundais and Mustang Mach-Es thrown in. I don't see a lot of compelling reasons at this time to choose anything other than a Tesla Model 3 if I were to switch to an EV. Is there something I'm missing here?

I don't think Tesla has any fears about the current batch of competition from other EVs. This hubris may prove to be a mistake down the road, only time will tell.

Toyota just announced the Beyond Zero series of BEVs starting with the bZ4X. It's a 71kwh 355volt and charges at level 3. But the Hyundais are absolutely amazing. Also, plugin hybrids have gotten to be VERY good. Honda also just released the Prologue.

It's starting to look a little tough in the BEV market.

What do you like so much about the Hyundais?

Plugin hybrids are something I'm considering as well.

Ioniq has MUCH better fast charging. Their high voltage batteries allow them to charge at 104 miles per 10 minutes or 640 miles per hour. The new Toyota and Hondas only charge about 60 miles per 10 minutes or 360 miles per hour.

Also, I'm really hesitant to try anything from Toyota or Honda that is brand spanking new. First adopters tend to get hosed. Also it's easier to get parts and repairs for the Ioniq since it's been around for so much longer. However the Hyundais are a lot less reliable than I would like.

My hands down favorite is the Prius Prime PHEV. Toyota's two motor E-CVT is probably the best transmission in the world and their motors are bomb proof with appropriate maintenance. Some people report refueling once a year.

I got a plug in hybrid (Lincoln Corsair) and I like it.

If you can charge at home, most of your errands/commute is within the electric range, and you can set it to run solely off the battery, you can go several months without having to put gas in it. At the same time, if you do a road trip, you just put gas in it, no need to find chargers that work and install charging apps on your phone.

I think plug in hybrids are the best compromise we could ask for at this point given current infrastructure. If we see a large public investment in charging, I think we would be seeing electric car adoption across the board. But until that happens, PHEVs are a good deal.

The bZ4X is widely regarded as one of the worst EVs produced today. Nothing Toyota makes today should be considered meaningful in the BEV market. They make good hybrids, but that’s about it.

Worst today, but I don't see that lasting long. Toyota tends to iterate and I wouldn't be surprised to see them dominate in the next 5 years. Unless it's just another "Compliance Car"

People have said that for 10 years with Toyota. They've had a headstart with their hybrids and have done nothing but squander it with Hydrogen aspirations and other nonsense compliance car type stuff. I'll believe it when I see it. Hyundai/Kia seem to be taking Toyota's place for the EV future here.

Yeah, Hydrogen is a horrible idea. Maybe 20 years ago when BEVs were really lame, but now?

Porsche, Audi, Polestar have EV options that are way nicer than Teslas, and growing in popularity.

Porsche, Audi, and Polestar are also way more expensive than a Tesla Model 3, so they should be nicer!

Polestars aren’t particularly more expensive than Teslas, but they also aren’t nicer either, honestly.

Audi and Porsche are both nicer interiors, but they aren’t better in terms of range or tech necessarily.

Polestar 2 is miles ahead of Tesla 3, both in interior comfort, and in handling. Teslas drive like a golf cart on steroids, Polestar drives like a driver's car.

I’ve driven a polestar 2 as a rental for a day and I cannot agree. Comfort was fine, a bit more cushy but nothing night and day. Interior is subjective and I thought the excessive use of cloth textiles was unlikely to wear well. Handling seemed… fine? I’m not driving this on a track, so both vehicles seemed adequately responsive.

Also, the infotainment with android automotive was pretty underwhelming. I was hoping it’d be nicer in some useful way, but it just felt like android auto if you stuck all the vehicle controls in android auto too…

Looks like, today, in Ireland (prices elsewhere in Europe will likely vary slightly, but should be mostly similar), a Tesla Model 3 starts at 39k after grants and relief, while an Audi Q4 e-tron starts at 41.5k. "Way more expensive" is probably pushing it. The closely related VW id.4 starts at 39k (the id.3, which is really a more direct competitor, at 35k).

>Are there companies that are making better electric cars than Tesla?

Yes, almost every large Chinese EV company has better cars than Tesla. Telsla's technology was the best many years ago but now it is years behind most other companies. Tesla's FSD is at least 5- years behind Mercedes-Benz and it purchases CATL batteries as they are better and cheaper. Also, every legacy automaker has better build quality eg Volkswagon or Hyundai, etc.

You can't currently buy (or I think even legally drive on public roads?) Chinese EVs in the United States and many other countries.

I'm also not interested in FSD. I am personally uncomfortable with the safety of this technology and I think that even the best implementations still need some more time in the oven.

> You can't currently buy (or I think even legally drive on public roads?) Chinese EVs in the United States

That is true.

> and many other countries.

'Many' may be doing some pretty heavy lifting there; BYD at least is in all significant markets but the US.

If you want a truck, you can get a ford lightning and have a regular truck and not whatever the cyber truck is

The US, remember, isn't the world; just the third-largest electric car market. In Europe, and particularly in China, Tesla is far less dominant in the market.

One other thing to consider: interest rates are almost double what they’ve been for the last decade, and manufacturers were pushing huge luxury trucks and SUVs and other highly-profitable models during the pandemic. I think some of the inventory stacking up across the industry is as simple as having built what sold a couple of years ago rather than what fits the market now.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/290673/auto-loan-rates-u...

Rising inventories aren't unique to Tesla:

https://caredge.com/guides/new-car-inventory-2024

Why would you want (versus need) a Tesla? It’s no longer an aspirational product, it’s an appliance.

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