Patagonia's New Study Finds Fleece Jackets Are a Serious Pollutant (2016) | Hacker News Reader

Patagonia's New Study Finds Fleece Jackets Are a Serious Pollutant (2016)

outsideonline.com

I found a 2023 followup from Patagonia:

https://www.patagonia.com/stories/toward-an-end-to-microfibe...

They still make fleece clothes, but they recommend washing less and have funded or sell filters to capture the microfibers.

There are several German brands selling fleece jackets made of boiled wool.

They are quite nice to be honest, and the price is not very different from decent synthetics.

Also boiled wool is not tricky to wash. Even regular wool is not hard to wash. If you have a washing machine with a wool program and you use soap specific for wool, things are straightforward.

We should favor natural fabrics. Synthetics are polluting during manufacturing and wear, plus they are hard to recycle. Externalities that turn into future debt.

Are they comparable in weight? My experience is that wool tends to be quite a bit heavier (though I am thinking of felt rarer than ‘fleece’)

And it gets even heavier when wet.

Can you give some brand names? Really interested in this.

Here, perhaps. (Just from a quick Google search.) I'm curious too.

https://www.littlespruceorganics.com/disana-organic-boiled-w...

66north from Iceland has some excellent wool fleeces.

The annoying part of about wool is remembering to use the wool-specific washing mode and the wool-specific detergent.

And one you've done that you have to reshape it when drying, which invariably must be done flat.

You don't really need a wool specific detergent, you can just switch completely to a detergent that doesn't have enzymes, specifically protease that's the main problem for wool.

Wool-specific detergents usually have lanolin or other equivalent lipids added into the mix.

These are really helpful to maintain wool properties.

This really depends on the type, quality and post processing of the wool. Also a small addition of synthetic fibers can drastically improve performance.

I got merino base layer clothing with non of the downsides you mentioned, while maintaining the positives.

I also got a thick 100% wool pullover, which was intensely post-processed, to the point of losing some wool qualities, but you can wash it at 60°C without any problem.

There has got to be an option for a fleece-like material that doesn't involve significant pollution or significant animal suffering. At some point, fleece has just gotta be phased out if we can't produce it without enormous downsides.

livestock are not killed to collect wool. hardline vegans may not accept it, but it's certainly not comparable to leather or fur.

Livestock are also necessary for regenerative farms that do not require outside sources of fertilizer. Hardline veganism requires petrochemical fertilizer.

If I understand correctly, cow hides are largely a by-product of beef production, and reducing leather use would not have an effect on animal suffering.

Apple stopped using leather and was criticised for environmental damage at least in the short-to-medium term (underutilisation of existing materials, new demand for plastics and synthetics).

Wool farming is pretty humane. The sheep generally live outside ib large pastures and are sheared once a year.

I wonder if it’s possible to make fleece from hemp.

wool fiber is used because its protein nanostructure is impermeable to water. it is an effective insulator even when the fabric is wet.

plant fibers can't replicate this.

polymer fibers can replicate this because they are solid extrusions.

As has been said by others, sheep are not killed for wool at all.

https://youtu.be/mANMw7nFYIQ?t=67

Not sure if you count insects into your moral calculus, but silk farming only involves caterpillars and mulberry trees. It's warmer, softer, lighter, and way less smelly than plastic, so it doesn't need as much washing, so less environmental impact. I can wear a silk t-shirt for about a week before it gets smelly, most of the time, whereas plastic shirts sometimes need to be washed twice after a single wearing to get the smell out!

The fibers are stronger than polyester, so if you get a thick silk fabric, it will last a lifetime. Unfortunately, it's absurdly expensive, so even though the total cost of ownership isn't terrible if you get a thick fabric because it will last forever, it's a ton of money up front. Additionally, most places sell super thin silk to keep the price down, which means it doesn't last, so you have to shop around and find the good thick stuff.

I love silkliving.com's 100% silk line, which even includes a fleece hoodie! I'm not associated with them other than as a satisfied customer that paid full price.

The show Clarkson's Farm on Amazon shows some sheep farming. It looks absolutely humane. Sheep grow wool, get sheared when it gets too hot. The sheep are not killed in the process. If you are worried about also tangentially supporting meat, I am sure there are some no kill wool farms that do not sell their lambs or sheep for slaughter.

At least in the US, synthetics can be difficult to avoid. While 100% cotton/linen/wool/etc articles can be found, blends like ~70%/~30% or ~95%/~5% natural/synthetic are much more common.

That’s for men’s stuff though. From my understanding the situation is much worse for women’s clothing, where form-fitting designs are preferred which makes stretchy synthetics ubiquitous.

Natural fabrics are nice until it gets cold.

Then duck or goose down works well, but only when encased in waterproof plastic. You even get plastic “down” that doesn’t work as well but is more weatherproof.

The only natural thing that might work in cold weather is maybe fur.

When it’s -40, you will have to pry my plastic + feather jacket from my frozen hands

Wow where do you live that it gets to be -40!

I live in NYC, where it gets cold sometimes, and my merino wool base layers from REI work great. I've never owned a heavy duty winter jacket in my years here.

Alberta, Canada.

You could layer up for mild cold, say down to -5C / 23 F.

But after a certain point you need a large volume of warm dry feathers around you.

The worst is probably actually freezing rain, which happens around 0C / 32 F. It’s not as cold, but the water and ice is more efficient than Alberta’s thin, usually dry mountain air at taking your precious heat away. You really want to be waterproof when that happens.

Unfortunately a rain/sleet/ice/wet snow mix is now more common than 'dry' snow in my part of the northeast US, necessitating waterproof gear if you want to be outside in the winter.

When it's -40, you will have to pry my wool an down jacket from me. No way you're getting me to wear plastic in those temperatures.

Interesting - I’ve never had a wool / down combo. Is the wool waterproof?

If it's damp wool is one of the best things you can wear

Perhaps, but unless there's a way of processing wool I've never seen, it also lets lots of wind through and doesn't insulate like a bit of dry duck down (nothing does). And you have to keep the down dry.

Cashmere base layer with down jacket over.

I have a Fjallraven coat that has a lot of down, plus their waxed G1000 material.

It's not something I'd take on an expedition, but it's fine for being outdoors below zero. You don't need the waterproof/breathable stuff quite so much at those temperatures because it's just snow.

I was out and about with the coat for several hours in -20C weather here this past winter and it did fine.

Nothing is going to hit the price/warmness combo of plastic based fleeces, but I find the smelliness factor on synthetics to be worth paying extra for high quality natural fibers. Plastic clothing just ends up smelling gross and needs 2x-3x the washing!

Some alternatives I've found. (I'm not associated with any of these, other than as a full price paying satisfied customer):

1) Silkliving.com is a New Zealand company that sells a 100% silk fleece. It's AMAZING to wear, and has a price to match. Pretty hard wearing, but I wouldn't wear it as my outer layer and then do construction or rock climbing or whatever. This fleece is as warm as plastic or wool, weighs less than plastic, is comfy over a wider range of temps, and just literally the best fleece money can buy for anything other than activities where it will get abraded. Sadly, only comes in black. I'm hoping if you all buy one, they will justify more colors because I want to buy more of these.

2) Minus33 is a New Hampshire, USA company (minus33.com) that makes a hard wearing 100% merino wool fleece. Their "expedition" weight is heavy, but WARM. I have two of these.

3) Arms of Andes (armsofandes.com) make Alpaca wool clothing. Alpaca fiber is hollow and smaller than merino wool, so it will be lighter (or the same weight but warmer) and slightly softer than merino. It's not as soft or light as silk though, and you might not notice the difference, whereas you will DEFINITELY notice silk vs. merino. They don't have a full zip hoodie, which is unfortunate, but they do offer non-toxic plant based dyes, which is nice! Remember, you are breathing that fiber in and swallowing it, so while it's an upgrade to go from plastic to natural fibers, it's also an upgrade to move away from to old school nasty heavy metal based dyes.

I have a few items from Arms of Andes that are really great. Highly recommend.

I ran into a similar situation as you after wearing synthetic clothing at the gym. It led me to create unwraplife.co as a database for plastic free clothing (no kickbacks here or anything shady, just a database).

> Plastic clothing just ends up smelling gross and needs 2x-3x the washing!

Yeah, I got some plastic based tee shirts that supposedly are composed in part from recycled bottles, which is cool, but they soak up armpit stank way more easily than shirts of other fabrics. Spray N' Wash works really well for that, though.

> Minus33 is a New Hampshire, USA company (minus33.com) that makes a hard wearing 100% merino wool fleece. Their "expedition" weight is heavy, but WARM. I have two of these.

When looking for a good 100% Merino wool beanie, I came across these guys, but sadly they barely retail in Europe and the international shipping they charge makes it absolutely not worth it.

I have a few pieces from loow.com (Wool backwards.) They are out of EU, and what I have from them, I like! (Not associated, just a satisfied customer that paid full price.)

Synthetic clothing is amazing if you live in the tropics. Where the humidity is so high, you start sweating right when you get out of the shower.

Also in countries where line drying is common and most homes don't have dryers.

Cotton clothing that doesn't get enough sun when line drying smells really bad if you sweat. Worse than any synthetic clothing in my experience.

Are you sure you're washing the clothing sufficiently, and that the detergent is working? I dry all my clothes on an indoor drying rack that gets zero direct sunlight, including 100% cotton items. I don't have any problems with washed items still smelling. Is the water chlorinated? Admittedly it's usually not tropical-level humidity here most of the time.

In high humidity environments you need the sunlight to help dry the clothing quickly enough so that bacteria doesn't start to form in the cotton weave. Because even if it gets dry, the minute you begin to sweat wearing that item, it'll stink.

In low humidity your cotton clothing will dry quickly enough that this doesn't happen.

Some of my stuff can take quite a while to dry still though. Particularly if the drying rack is very full and it's cold in the apartment. For everything to fully dry sometimes takes 24 hours.

What was your experience washing the various things you got from these places? Did it come out ok?

I'm used to doing cold water washes and hang drying everything, but even with that, some wool stuff... it seems you just look at it wrong and it shrinks in weird ways.

Alpacas are cute animals - there are a few ranches near where I live

https://photos.app.goo.gl/m8XTysD77HcpNx4r8

I wash wool and silk using a ph balanced detergent with no protease. I use cold water, minimum spin, and a super long soak. Then I hang dry. It's more work to wash this way, but they last longer, never smell, and 100% silk and wool only need washing 1/3rd to 1/5th as often anyway, so the total work is lower than with plastic clothing. The brand of detergent I use is literally called "Soak," and I get it on Amazon.

The clothing comes out great.

Can you tell us more about the soak phase or link to some reading on the specifics?

I do the other three things so I’m just curious whether I’m missing something essential.

I wash quite annoying knitwear that has on occasion shrunk when someone else has washed them or due to my mistakes.

I wash inside out in a clothes bag with no spin and cold water using a detergent for wool (e.g. Woollite, which may not be available where you are).

I dry (also inside out) on a heated drying rack on top of a thin pillowcase or a mesh for that purpose https://www.lakeland.co.uk/25293/dry-soon-deluxe-mesh-shelf-.... This speeds up drying despite the omission of spin, and takes about a day.

This has worked for at least a dozen cycles for a rollneck I quite like.

Cashmere has always been my choice.

> they recommend washing less

I think it makes sense that Patagonia sells them still. They still do sell high performance gear and I think that should exist.

But I think the bigger issue is that normal people are often buying high performance gear and treating them like normal clothing. I know people that will put their shells (outer layer) into the washing machine after a hike. Not only does it put microfibers and other chemicals into the water, but it ruins your shell. We got madlads washing their Gore-Tex rain jackets once or several times a week! You should only be washing them when they start wetting (water collects) or smell. Same is true for most water proof jackets.

That sounds about right. I wouldn't give up my synthetic stuff for, say, bike riding. It's light, dries quickly, insulates even when it's a bit wet, stands up to repeated washings, fits well and is just good at the job it's supposed to do.

Same thing for more intense hiking or xc skiing.

But for a nice mid layer for day to day use in the winter, I'd love to ditch the synthetics.

From all the studies I have found, the biggest contributor to micro plastics is tires making up almost 80% of the pollution.

I wonder what percent synthetic clothing material contributes to the overall micro plastic pollution?

Tires aren't 80% of microplastics pollution, that's a misreporting of the study. They're 80% of the category that includes tires, that whole category is only 11% of microplastics.

do you have the figures for synthetic clothing?

I own some synthetic clothing, and I try hang dry it as I believe drying contributes to micro plastic pollution.

I'd have to dig into the research to figure it out, numbers on synthetic fibers range from 34-50+% but how that's categorized is all over the place.

if we're recalling the same study, that's specifically for roadside streams, which makes sense. cars and tires are terrible but they're not everywhere

When I found out that fleece was made of plastic I instantly stopped wearing it. That is weird.

Wool lasts a hell of a lot longer as well. The only drawback...sheep farts.

Prefer sheep farts to plastic TBH

Wool can also be a huge PITA to wash.

yeah but you don't really need to wash it that often, at least

Clothes that can't be washed is a nonstarter for me outside of a few very specific things (suits, overcoats, etc.). It should be a nonstarter for more people.

Yeah I have a few wool things that are 'dry clean only' which I really dislike.

Polar fleece / polyester is far more durable and longer lasting than wool… a cheap polar fleece jacket will basically last forever, even if used roughly by kids for decades. But the fibers harden and it loses some of its softness and warmth. Wool is much nicer but no comparison in longevity… it chafes through quickly and is susceptible to moths.

New-style wool is softer than traditional wool but it wears out quickly (~5-10 years of seasonal use).

Traditional wool is scratchier but lasts much longer. Things labeled "Donegal" tend to be of that type, but read the description, since that's the name of a town, not the type of wool.

Yeah, modern ultra soft and thin merino wool garments wear out quickly, but even the old fashioned scratchy stuff doesn’t hold a candle to polar fleece. I’ve literally never seen a polar fleece jacket wear out, if they can handle many years of rough outdoors use by high energy toddler boys, they’d last hundreds of years of typical adult use.

As a sailor, I’ve also seen the mind blowing chafe/wear resistance of polyester/dacron. Dacron sails and sheets (ropes) almost never fail from chafe. No natural fiber has that kind of chafe resistance.

I love wool and hate the feel of polyester stuff, but durability isn’t one of polyesters weaknesses.

I don't think most people realize how much plastic they wear.

Yeah, I've always been wary about wearing plastics that will melt onto your skin should they catch fire.

Have you checked other clothing as well? E.g. a lot of my T-shirts are a blend of cotton and polyester. I hate how much I like them (a lot).

Not OP, but I've avoided those when possible too (except some company issued tees), etc.

Full cotton/wool are the best.

Yeah, that realization led me to re-evaluate my textiles and to basically move to natural fibers as much as possible.

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not... like, fleece melts and natural fibers don't melt

if the writing on the tag, or the "we make it from recycled bottles" marketing material, etc didn't make it clear before that

But how often do you wash your jackets? For my oldest fleece jacket, I may have washed it once maybe twice over the 20 years I've owned it.

Most kids jackets are fleece...

Really heartening to see commenters in this thread concerned about plastic pollution! I have also tried to stopped buying clothes with plastic (polyester). Probably not our biggest environmental concern at the moment, but still might as well develop good habits of consuming in a way that minimizes my impact on the environment.

I'm kind of surprised that washing machines don't have that sort of filter already. I recently cleaned out two of the filters in my own washing machine and it did a pretty decent job catching a lot of things. I guess because it's so fine it would have to be cleaned out more?

we're talking sub-micrometer here, I doubt that the usual sieves can handle that

You'd want a lot of pre-filters to catch bigger lint. And those pre-filters will need to be readily accessible for the user to clean out. And you'd want a system for detecting the filter is full to warn the user. Otherwise you're looking at a lot of unhappy people as their washing machine fails to drain a lot of the time as things clog up with lint.

Samsung developed a microplastic filter that works with any washing machine.

Claims to capture 98% of microplastics.

It compacts the lint so that you only need to empty it once a month. Reports remaining capacity via SmartThings.

https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-launches-less-microf...

The one that concerns me personally is the whole wastewater recycling directly to drinkable tap water.

Between micro-plastics from washing machines to medicine disposal, the long term unknowns to human health seem to be significant, not to mention the potential for human error.

Microplastics are one of the easier things to filter out from water though, compared to other nasty things, like pharmaceuticals or arsenic or PFAs.

Although I think it will get to that point where we will have to use distillation machines for drinking water/cooking, unfortunately.

PFAS is able to be removed via reverse osmosis which direct potable reuse facilities utilize, so not really a problem

It is obviously more cost effective to filter out microplastics in wastewater treatment than at the individual washing machine level. 98% seems pretty good too.

Aren’t virtually all outdoors wear made of plastics? As far as I know, cheap brands and also pricier ones like Arcteryx all use the same materials. But they work great in terms of shedding water so I am not sure what alternative there is. Maybe the best way is to use all natural clothing for base layers but have the outer layer be plastic?

You can get all natural fiber outdoor gear. Ibex, smartwool, wooly, and others make good wool gear. Outer rain layers are more rare but a few companies like Filson make them. Good rain gear existed long before plastic was invented. Treated leather and waxed cotton are two ancient waterproof outer layer technologies that work excellent, and are heavier but also more physically durable than the modern stuff.

I also feel “outer layers” are way overused. A good thick wool mid layer with natural lanolin waterproofing will work in any conditions except really strong rain, and is more comfortable and breathable. I have a vintage no longer made Ibex wool mid layer that is quite rain resistant due to very high lanolin content.

My understanding is that waxed cotton isn’t nearly as waterproof as plastic wear, but more like very water resistant. I have no direct experience with it - just what I’ve seen others report.

It’s waterproof enough… people sailed and fished in offshore storms in the stuff for hundreds of years.

Modern hard shells aren’t very waterproof in practice either because the membranes and DWR coatings aren’t very durable.

The only truly waterproof rain gear I’ve seen is totally non breathable polyurethane or pvc rain gear, or an actual dry suit.

> Modern hard shells aren’t very waterproof in practice either because the membranes and DWR coatings aren’t very durable.

If the membrane gets blocked (ice, or soaked with water) they stop breathing and you get soaked from your own sweat.

Less waterprof alternatives can often be drier in practice.

Exactly… I’ve found in goretex stuff that isn’t brand new, I get dangerously soaked from my own sweat, whereas I stay dry and comfortable in the rain with leather and lanolin wool gear.

And “isn’t brand new” can mean just a few hours of actual use outdoors with lots of mud, brush, etc.

Being wet isn't that big of a deal, as you say people sweat and they don't die of exposure. The primary goal is to be warm.

In the past, people spent all their time outdoors and fought wars without a trace of Gore-Tex or DWR. They wore wool underwear and cotton jackets. Now office workers think they need 3L Goretex for the scramble across the parking lot.

Getting wet in the wilderness can be a huge deal, especially when you stop moving.

I disagree- getting wet is a huge deal, and is why breathability is generally more important than absolute waterproofness, especially if you are doing hard physical work. People do die from exposure in the wilderness after getting soaked with sweat, and then stopping to rest.

I just don't think gore-tex and DWR are the best solutions for staying warm and dry... there are lots of other options that are more durable and keep you drier in practice. Besides the non-synthetic stuff above, I also prefer Columbia Outdry, and polyurethane with large zippered vents over gore-tex/DWR. In the real world, the breathability of gore-tex just isn't enough to be useful, it's close to a plastic bag.

But I agree that for your average urban person doing a quick walk in the rain from a parking lot- just getting the outside of a sweater damp is no big deal, and they probably don't even need to own an expensive rain shell.

I have a waxed cotton jacket and it's ok for getting around town, but it's heavy and bulky compared to a gore-tex jacket.

A lot of it comes down to what you are doing- for hard labor in harsh physical conditions: mud, gravel, heavy brush, etc. during things like military work, commercial fishing, hunting, and construction lightweight backpacking or climbing gear doesn't hold up at all, you need something much heavier duty, and therefore heavier.

For hiking or climbing, especially intermittently as a hobby, and in conditions where you aren't making a lot of full body contact with sharp or abrasive surfaces, weight is a bigger consideration than durability.

I got pretty tired of how expensive lightweight gear just doesn't hold up even for recreational outdoor use... for example you can buy thin nylon backpacking pants at REI for $150, that are pretty similar in design and materials to a $50 pair of 'tactical military/police style pants' but the REI ones will rip in half the first time they snag on a bush. The military pants are made from much much heavier material, and will last far longer in harsh conditions, at the expense of more weight.

Shake a fleece jacket under the light. All those fibers are plastic, going into your lungs...

if discards go into the waste stream and into controlled disposal, then things are not terrible; but when products end up on the ground, in small pieces, on the streets or play yards.. problems.. streams and waterways - big problems

> discards go into the waste stream and into controlled disposal

per the article:

> wastewater treatment plants couldn’t filter out all synthetic fibers, and that toxins such as DDT and PCBs can bind to them as they make their way into watersheds

Yeah it's pretty gross. I've tried to move away from synthetic fabrics wherever possible. It's just plastic.

I learned recently that a huge amount of the lint you see in the dryer is microplastics. Guess what? A similar amount comes out in the washer and goes out with the waste water wherever that ends up in your area. (These tiny fibers aren't easily caught by bulk water treatment methods, I understand.)

A significant portion of "household dust" comes from two sources: dead skin cells (great) and microplastics from textiles (wooo), like bedding, clothing, towels, rugs.

Rugs: You can get machine-washable wool or cotton rugs or jute rugs.

Clothing: cotton, linen, wool, natural leather

Bedding: cotton/linen sheets

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