Visiting the annual Braun collectors fair | Hacker News Reader

Visiting the annual Braun collectors fair

arslan.io

242 pointsfarslan84 comments

I’d love to read an account of the ‘fall’ of Braun. Through my adult life, basically the only thing it makes that are still ubiquitous are electric shavers - which are great shavers, but hardly icons of design.

Was there internal drama that led to this contraction in the diversity of what they made? Did it happen fast or slow? I feel like there must be a good story in there.

If you're interested Dieter Rams itself goes into it a little bit in the "Rams" documentary. But it all happened after Gillette acquired Braun in the 1970's.

Sold to Gilette in 1967, expansion into many different areas after. Then, I guess their story is not really unique, they shared the fate of all European household appliance manufacturers — increasing competition from Asian companies, so by the 1990s, Braun was dead.

After Procter & Gamble bought them in 2005, it now mostly exists as a brand to be licensed (everything other than shaving and electric toothbrushes).

And now days the toothbrushes use the "Oral-B" brand, so Braun is only really known (in international markets) for shavers.

No, the electric toothbrushes are called Braun in markets outside the US. I've only seen them labeled Oral-B in the US.

Also, they're pretty lousy toothbrushes IMO. I recommend Panasonic ones instead.

> No, the electric toothbrushes are called Braun in markets outside the US.

In some markets, maybe. In some other markets outside the US, they also use the Oral-B brand.

In both Japan and Germany, I've seen them sold as "Braun".

When? Maybe 10-15 years ago?

Germany: probably 2 years ago. Japan: right now.

I just looked on amazon.co.jp: https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%80%90Amazon-co-jp-%E9%99%90%E5%...

It seems they have both names.

Japan is interesting. Maybe the Braun brand is still pretty strong over there. But in Europe and elsewhere you no longer see prominent "Braun" branding on the packaging - and it's been that way for a long time.

You're right that the Braun logo co-branding still features on the devices themselves, though.

Yeah, the battery in the Oral-B toothbrushes are awful, sonic care are much better

That's not the problem I found. My problems were twofold:

1) The Braun toothbrushes are just nasty. No matter how much I rinsed them off after every use, they collected a bunch of nasty crap in the holder. My Panasonic toothbrush never does this.

2) The Braun toothbrushes only work on a single voltage, because their charger sucks. You cannot take the charger with you when you travel between continents. Any decent modern electronics these days don't have this problem. My Panasonic toothbrush's charger works with 100-240V, 50-60Hz power (worldwide), and this is a model that seems to only be sold in Japan.

Also, the Braun toothbrush is huge. My Panasonic is much more compact.

> "No, the electric toothbrushes are called Braun in markets outside the US. I've only seen them labeled Oral-B in the US."

I can assure you that now days they're Oral-B in most, if not all, markets globally. Certainly in the UK, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand they are no longer sold as "Braun", just "Oral-B".

Here's the Oral-B store on amazon.de, for example: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/stores/Oral-BMarkenshop/page/4553...

Tricky to confirm (no need to follow links), but the first hits on Amazon UK[0], Amazon AU[1], Amazon US[2] are clearly labelled Braun in the images. Amazon Germany[3] and Amazon France[4] too.

[0]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oral-B-Vitality-Toothbrush-Includin... [1]: https://www.amazon.com.au/Oral-B-SMART-Electric-Rechargeable... [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Oral-B-1000-Rechargeable-Electric-Too... [3]: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Vitality-Electric-Toothbrush-Clea... [4]: https://www.amazon.fr/Oral-B-Vitality-Action-Brosse-%C3%89le...

Yes, but they still feature the "Braun" co-branding on the device, but the primary naming/branding is always "Oral-B".

The co-branding is because the device (electronics) are Braun, and the bristles/brush-heads are Oral-B.

Well, yes, but both the toothbrushes and the brush heads are sold only with the "Oral-B" name in most countries. That is: Braun logo still appears on the device, but not in the product name, box, and marketing materials.

Don't use Amazon for reference, use something like Boots and you'll confirm it immediately.

Alright, here you go https://www.boots.com/oral-b-pro-3-3900--black-and-pink-elec...

Going to the American Boots site is malicious compliance at its finest. I actually lol'd.

Huh? It goes to the UK Boots site for me. Where Oral-B toothbrushes are definitively called "Oral-B".

Does Boots even operate in the USA? They're part of the same parent company as Walgreens so I'd be surprised if they did.

In all English speaking European markets they're Oral-B.

https://www.currys.ie/appliances/health-and-beauty/electric-...

Not only that, but they're frequently the top position in the year-end 'best of' on both the legitimate consumer review sites and the more credible outlets

https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-electric-too... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/recommended/tech/best-electric-t...

My toaster, kettle, coffee maker, emersion blender, hand mixer, shaver and toothbrush are all labelled Braun (the toothbrush also says Oral-B, but that co-labelling started in 1984[0]). That said, Proctor & Gamble makes finding Braun appliances in North America rather tricky (special order only, never on a store shelf).

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral-B

They have good clocks, still. Not sure who manufactures them.

They have a clock-specific website, braun-clocks.com, that shows P&G as the registrant.

Can confirm. I have the BC12 on my bedside table, I love it - simple, elegant, does exactly what I need it to do, no more, no less.

“Part of the Herald (Hong Kong) group of companies, Zeon Ltd is a leading manufacturer and distributor of clocks and watches, operating internationally in wholly owned offices in London and Hong Kong.”

> [...] they shared the fate of all European household appliance manufacturers — increasing competition from Asian companies, so by the 1990s, Braun was dead.

Miele and Bosch etc are still going strong. So I'm not sure what you mean by 'European household appliance manufacturers': they have faced the competition from Asian companies and survived.

> "Miele and Bosch etc are still going strong."

Not to mention Phillips, Electrolux (still the world's 2nd largest appliance manufacturer after Whirlpool!), and relative newcomers like Dyson.

Philips is not exactly a European household appliance manufacturer, they've sold off most of that and moved into health tech.

> they've sold off most of that and moved into health tech.

..and are knowingly selling, among other things, highly defective CPAP devices.

Nah bruh. Philips and Electrolux are mostly just name brands today that license their badges to be placed on goods from OEM Chinese or Turkish appliance makers.

Electrolux doesn't license out their brand names to anyone, AFAIK. They do operate manufacturing facilities in 16 countries, and 2 of their 3 largest factories are in Europe: Vallenoncello, Italy and Ljungby, Sweden (the third is in Rayong, Thailand - not China!)

With Phillips its more complicated because they've spun off many of their divisions into separate companies, such as the lighting division into Signify NV. So Signify now makes the Phillips Hue lighting products under license. But it's not like they're licensing the brand out to random companies - they're companies that were previously part of Phillips itself.

> "they've sold off most of that and moved into health tech"

They've kept health tech and "personal care products", which includes the Phillips shavers and toothbrushes. Phillips is a global market leader in those products and sells just about as many shavers as Braun does.

You seem knowledgeable about these companies, but can I just please point out that the Dutch company is "PHILIPS" [1] with a single 'L'. I wrote it in all-caps to make it more clear, but see the logo on the linked Wikipedia page of course. Thanks.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips

You're quite right, sorry. My uncle worked for Philips back when I was growing up and due to his staff discounts, our house was filled with all their products (back when they made TVs, audio equipment, and even computers), so I should know better!

Now days I'm still loyal to their excellent toothbrushes, beard trimmers, and LED smart lighting products.

More accurate would be low margin businesses died off to Asia.

High margin/specialisation businesses are still around. Just because wages don't massively affect the bottom line.

> Miele and Bosch etc are still going strong

Bosch AC units are just the brand slapped on products designed and manufactured in Asia by the likes of Gree, TCL and Midea. Probably their washing machines, too.

> they shared the fate of all European household appliance manufacturers

Not only household appliance manufacturers but also electronics, mobile phones and whatnot. Philips, Grundig, AEG, Nokia, Bosch are just memories.

Bosch is still going strong - I know them as making mid/high end kitchen appliances and power tools.

Philips still around too, though not the recognizable company it once was (might be doing better financially though?…)

Pretty much what happened more broadly. Brands got sold off to companies making goods in Asia for lower prices. Consumers mostly not willing to pay 2x to 3xand it’s often not even clear if the higher prices are worth the premium.

This. I don't mind paying more, but it must be worth it.

At this point it not even for lower prices.

I'm into coffee, and Timemore products are cleaner and overall better at what I want than from european or US brands.

Same went for MUJI, who were never really cheap outside of Japan (and were just middle priced even domestically) but kept a foothold thanks to better and cleaner design.

Increasingly Xiaomi's household products are also coming into that niche. Still daily using their driver set after 5 years.

>Xiaomi's household products are also coming into that niche.

IMO Xiaomi, more than Apple carries on Braun legacy. Relatively well designed, performant, and accessible (cheap) consumer goods. No one else is even trying to build out an ecosystem like Xiaomi with underlying design language.

Muji has some nice kitchen stuff/home appliances in Asian market, but they're expanding their portfolio very conservatively. Bonus for designing a Muji house filled with Muji goods. Wish I can order that from a Sears Catalogue.

Once I rented a place with a pretty Xiaomi kettle and I'll never forget how I small ants came out from around the round button in the middle of the lid when I turned it on first time.

I can't say "well designed" if it is just spamming plastic. In this case design or manufacturing defect ended up with big enough gaps in the plastic for insects to enter and all that space under plastic that is impossible to clean. It's a kitchen appliance after all.

The lid button by the way is super inconvenient. You can't just pick up the kettle with a single hand and open lid while you are heading to fill it up. But sure it looks good to some I guess compared to more useful button on the handle a usual kettle has

Never saw any other Xioami kettles since or before. Saw other products though. Didn't notice some sort of consistent design language. Aside from plastic being mostly white maybe? But even that not always true.

I also thought its sensor is faulty because it keeps boiling water for more than 1 minute though maybe that's intentional? Bit later it seemed like metal inside was rusting. But that's more manufacturing than design.

For reference, that's how it looks now, if it was different: https://www.mi.com/global/product/xiaomi-electric-kettle-2/

Looks basic enough for me, with the opening button on the handle, so they fixed it ?

They have a few different kettle models with buttons in different places and varying amounts of plastic like any other brand. This is just my experience with one model and thoughts on its "design"

It was this year and kettle seemed brand new when I arrived, I guess it survived at most one other tenant. Not an old model for sure.

Sounds like a dud $10 Mijia 1A with open button on lid - their lowest end model. Others have button on handle.

I don't know any Xiaomi product with wide spread fitment issues, they're value engineered, but well assembled low-medium end consumer goods. Nice plastic, in Xiaomi white or black, occasionally orange accents. As well assembled as any western kit. Most of their kitchen appliance is some sort of knob and plastic covered button, very easy to clean/maintain.

>consistent design language

Less is more Dieter Ram, white/black, simple geometry with rounded edges, round oled display etc. It's very consistent. Especially considering they make nearly everything, from fridges, to cooktops, washing/dryer, to ACs, heaters, vacuums etc.

Ultimately, they look nice, do the thing they do, for fraction of the price, i.e. affordable / actually make decent design available to masses. Bring "design" to low/medium income markets. Which is core to OG ethos/vision of modernism/functionalism.

You got the model right, yes!

> decent design

it's not "decent design". "Design" is how things work. Button in the lid is bad design, excess poorly fit plastic (which costs some of that $10) is bad design. The kicker here is that it's both bad design and more expensive.

> $10

Where you got that from? Quick search shows $20-30+ in most countries, that is mid range and more than other better budget kettles.

It's even crazier in poorer countries like China or Philippines where $10-$12 is not just "a bit more", it literally buys you two or three kettles with better design (can open lid with single hand) and more capacity.

And that's their lowest end price you say...

Xiaomu is not "bringing decent design to the masses". This is duping "the masses" into spending more money on objectively worse product that they would have to throw away sooner.

> dud

No, other reviews about how button doesn't fully open lid or temperature sensor is off or rust are consistent.

Seriously, it's just a badly put together product with zero innovation and worse quality sold at higher prices than equivalents. That's Xiaomi in my experience

>That's Xiaomi in my experience

Compare it against entire Xiaomi product portfolio and company history, they sell 100s of millions of products per year across different segments, brand is known for quality : price ratio, like IKEA, which has recalls all the time because some SKUs launch with issues. If you follow coffee drama, plenty of high end 100-200 USD kettle's rust. Duds happen. What do you think makes more sense, your / some people's bad experience with one SKU, likely due bad manufacturing batch VS claim that xiaomi makes bad products? Xiaomi reputation where Xiaomi household goods (not just electronics) are sold has been pretty established in past 10 years - they make mostly good looking (according to taste) products, cheap, accessible, with occasional duds, like most companies. Biggest common complaint, are not manufacturing issues, which happens, but region locking smart products.

>$10 / design

It's offical price on xiaomi PRC, 69 rmb. I've seen it go on sale for $5. You can pay a few bucks more for kettle with button on handle from main Xiaomi line. 1A is "Mijia" - entry level beater kettle, it's fine for what it does - value engineer function/aesthetics for people on budget who also care about looks and are willing to make compromises. So much so that people willing to spend 100-200% premium (big reason why xiaomi popular on aliexpress) for the aesthetics - which is part of design, not just pure functionality. Even Braun/Rams "functionalism" from architectural modernism/functionalism, is as much about APPEARANCE as actual function. Unsurprisingly, a lot of OG functionalist designs, especially in architecutre end up not being very functional. But they do look good. And that's ultimately as / if not more important for people who buy these products. Good design in this context is balancing function and aesthtics and accessbility. Braun/ Xiaomi addresses such needs extra well because they have range of products, i.e. it's obvious 1A button on lid isn't made for single hand function. For people who want more functionality other than a beater kettle for a rental that prioritizes aesthetics/stage dressing, they can buy one of the higher end models.

Yes, Ikea and others recall products eg. for safety issues. Xiaomi did a recall too for their scooter for similar reasons. Nobody recalls for "bad design" because laws don't require that. Not sure how that helps the fact that design is bad though

(Xiaomi should probably recall this kettle for malfunctioning temp sensor but they don't have that level of responsibility.)

For the prices I saw they are not entry level at any of the rock bottom cheapest online markets in Russia (Yandex), Philippines (Lazada) or China (Taobao). It seems that in UK it sold for 30 pounds at amazon.

And again even at the advertised 69 rmb price that only is true in China you can buy multiple better kettles with sane button placement in China. If you know the prices and salaries there you would hardly call that entry level price for a kettle

The fact that you need to pay even more for a model just with sane button placement (forget other issues) just says it all. They spam white plastic until you don't see the ugly and now they think they're Apple, and apparently some people are buying that marketing. To be Apple you actually have to have good design.

I've seen the small Muji house last year and thought it would be a nice addition in our garden :D

I'm assuming you saw the "hut", there's a few models.

https://www.muji.com/jp/mujihut/en.html

They have a prefab house as well:

https://www.dezeen.com/2020/01/16/muji-yo-no-ie-prefabricate...

Yeah, it was the hut. The other one is pretty cool too. I’d need something like the hut but with a small bathroom. Would be nice for guests.

If anyone is curious about (industrial) design, it is worth checking out the documentary Objectified by Gary Hustwit (and the rest of the 'trilogy'):

* https://www.hustwit.com/objectified

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectified

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Trilogy

Trailer:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dKJZfjHJJs

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I am more of a Bosch fan though. Braun appliances are a bit "too much retro" for me. ;)

If you love "everyday objects from the 20th century, especially electrical appliances" and are in Valencia, Spain, then checkout the Alfaro Hofmann Collection which has some lovely Braun pieces shown in the context of many other designs: https://www.alfarohofmann.com/en/holdings/s?filtered=1&fabri...

Family had a Braun Mixer type 4142 when I was growing up and I used to marvel at the design. Clean lines, subtle curves, the stark simplicity of the dial. Had no idea who Dieter Rams was and his design legacy at Braun.

Bought a Braun Aetlier 1 Stereo as a collectors item much later in life, to pay homage to Rams. A thing of beauty that now is a centerpiece, sitting next to the NeXT Cube.

How do you like the Atelier 1?

Unfortunately it does not work. Simply exists for it’s form, not its function.

yes, it is beautiful

Braun has an incredible design legacy. I had no idea there's an annual collectors fair. Add that to my bucket list.

The Design Museum in Brussels[1] also has a sizeable collection of Dieter Rams and other Braun items. The theme of the permanent exhibition is polymers, so there's everything from little electronic devices to whole modular plastic storage units on display. I'd highly recommend it!

[1]: https://designmuseum.brussels

> The Design Museum in Brussels also has a sizeable collection of Dieter Rams and other Braun items.

Museum Angewandte Kunst (Museum for Applied Art)[0] in Frankfurt, too.

[0] https://www.museumangewandtekunst.de/de/besuch/ausstellungen...

Edit: And in English - https://www.museumangewandtekunst.de/en/visit/exhibitions/pe...

I’m 44 and to this day I still use my very fist Braun electric shaver. I don’t even know the model, but it looks just like one with a blue button in the pic in the article, although the case is different and the blue is darker in mine. The only issue it has is that I have to place the connector in a very specific position or it won’t charge.

I think it’s going to outlive me.

I had a Braun shaver for a very long time — long after the battery had died. It worked great while plugged into the wall, which was fine because I kept it in the bathroom next to an outlet. I switched to a new shaver after receiving one as a gift. I had no idea that modern shavers (maybe most electronics these days?) only run from the battery, rather than passing through from the wall. It’s a reminder of a time before forced obsolescence that I miss.

OTOH, not being connected to the mains is probably a lot safer, especially if you use it in the bathroom.

Possibly. Although with GFCI sockets, I was not as concerned.

Apart from watches, Braun design language last couple decades have felt pretty uninspired.

I agree. However since 2009 the Head of Design has been Oliver Grabes, and I love where is he heading. He started to think more about legacy Braun design and started incorporating old design elements in their never elements.

Personally I don't think you can capture lightning in a bottle twice. Dieter's principles were absorbed into the culture, which is really as good as it gets. Resulting of course in Apple, the current apex of industrial design.

Important product categories are different, households are different, mass manufacturing processes are completely different. Braun pushed the envelope so much. Designing products now using the language of the 20th century seems...to miss the point at the least.

Nothing against Oliver's work, but for Braun to be a true design powerhouse again would take a clean slate, and I don't see how that can be done.

I started my career at Braun and have a huge soft spot for them. Hope to visit Kronberg again some day, maybe the fair would be a good excuse. Thank you highlighting it, was very enjoyable to read and go back memory lane.

It would be interesting if there was one major city that invested enough funds to organize thrift stores around particular design aesthetics or historic periods. So you could have a `50's thrift store, a `60's one, etc. Alternatively they could be organized around classes of goods such as clothing, household appliances, tools, etc.

There is a lot of stuff out there but not enough incentive to bring it all together, refurbish, and reuse.

There a few places like this in Europe. In Berlin, for example, there are some DDR-era design stores.

I have had a Braun toaster, staff mixer for almost 20 years and they still work flawlessly. Beautiful machines!

The Braun toothbrush is also very reliable. All the Sonicare I had gave up after 1-2 years :( so I stopped buying them. But the Brauns are still going strong, albeit not so fancy as their competitors.

Braun is the only shaver brand that I can confidently get a smooth clean shave without getting rashes or pulled beard. Esp. their series 9 which cuts even curly beard perfectly. This says a lot about their engineering design superiority.

Here in Australia, the "Series 9 Pro 9467cc" apparently costs $449. That's a pretty steep ask when a perfectly passable Remington goes for $23.

We have Braun alarm clocks. I liked the previous generation better, but one of those did not survive a fall to the floor, and I don't know what happened to the other.

This is about the old Braun. The new one is the usual Chinese garbage. Not that different from Philips or Bosch though, this stuff just breaks so much faster than what I was used to two decades or more ago.

Came here to say the same - think twice before buying.

I got enamoured by their wrist watch reissues, got one for myself and another model for my wife. In one watch hands weren't aligned to tick marks and another had hands simply detached themselves from the axes and now hang limply pointing at 6.

I guess it could qualify as an art project of some sort, uber-minimalizm in both design and function, but that's not really what I bought it for.

Companies selling stuff that lasts do not themselves last. Same reason there is no "ethical" consumption anymore.

That's peak design for me.

Wow I wish that I had one of those coffee makers.

It's the Braun KF 20 and if you search around you can find on Ebay in good condition: https://onlyonceshop.com/product/braun-kf-20

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