People with gas and propane stoves breathe more unhealthy nitrogen dioxide
news.stanford.edu
news.stanford.edu
Let's sous-vide a steak for 2 hours, and then throw it in a hot pan with oil, without drying off the steak. You'll get a lot of smoke, which will probably set of any kind of ionizing smoke detector.
Whether you're cooking on gas or electric at that moment really doesn't matter.
What matters is that you have a _PROPER_ range hood. One that vents outside and one that isn't integrated into a microwave oven.
Previous comment about range hoods: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40161811#40163023
There is no way around the fact that a gas range combusts stuff and that combustion products are mostly toxic. Regardless of what you put in your pan.
Do you not cook or something?
Not wrong, but given how many people have an 'improper' range hood, or a proper one that is never used (often because it is "too loud), or no range hood whatsoever (a common situation in rentals), you're stuck with chemicals in your home.
> Whether you're cooking on gas or electric at that moment really doesn't matter.
Yes it does: all cooking will generate chemicals, but you're adding extra ones by using a combustible heat source.
All that goes up the hood and outside. Criticize the hood not the range if its not functioning properly. Browning meat or frying anything in oil is not exotic and is not good for you to breathe regardless of range type.
In theory.
In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, theory and practice are (often) different.
LBNL found that range hoods sometimes captured only 55% of pollutants like NO2:
* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22044446/
Another study found it 30%:
* https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/es3001079
Even with range hoods, results can vary even for the same range, see (e.g.):
> These studies found that for many range hoods, [capture efficiency] is much higher for the back than for the front cooktop burners.
* https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03601...
Design for the real world, not the spherical cow idealized one, for example when it comes to make-up air (so you're not depressurizing your home):
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwSWOAkbhjA
> Criticize the hood not the range if its not functioning properly. Browning meat or frying anything in oil is not exotic and is not good for you to breathe regardless of range type.
Of course blaming ventilation is a standard go-to response:
> “Ventilation is really where this discussion should be, rather than banning one particular type of technology,” said Jill Notini, a vice president with the Washington-based [Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers] trade group. “Banning one type of a cooking appliance is not going to address the concerns about overall indoor air quality. We may need some behavior change, we may need [people] to turn on their hoods when cooking.”
* https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/us-safety-agency-to-consider-ban...
But that may not help: In 2014, a group of researchers in Baltimore ran a study with 78 homes with gas stoves to understand the most effective ways to reduce indoor air pollution. In one group of homes, they replaced gas stoves with electric stoves. In this group, NO2 pollution levels fell by 50%. (Kephart told me the remaining NO2 probably came from cars and other sources of pollution outside). In another group of homes, they gave homeowners an air purifier with a carbon filter and NO2 levels fell by 22%. In the last group, they installed range hoods. In this final group they found no significant difference in NO2 pollution.
* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24329966/
Many gas stoves leak pollution even when they are turned off (are you planning to run a vent 24/7?):
* https://sustainability.stanford.edu/news/climate-and-health-...
It's probably a lot easier to prevent pollution in the first place as compared to dealing with it after the fact.
Yes: a good vent (that is actually used) is necessary. But the vent has to be so much better for combustible fuel than non-combustible, and so non-combustible allows for more tolerance of errors.
Yes:
> […]The results show that UFP reduction varies with range hood flow rate, particle size, and burner position. Higher range hood flow rates generally increased UFP reduction within a house, though the effect of the hood flow rate varied with the particle size. At the same exhaust flow rate, lower particle reduction effectiveness was observed for smaller particles, likely due to molecular and turbulent diffusion. With regard to burner position, larger UFP removal was observed for the back burner than for the front burner. Regular and appropriate usage of a kitchen range hood during cooking activities can potentially reduce UFP concentrations; however, decisions about the design and use of kitchen exhaust hoods for controlling UFP and other combustion contaminants require consideration of both the indoor air quality improvements and energy costs. What mechanism would there be to cause it to behave this way? […]
* PDF: https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=91081...
* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22750181/
> I'll choose to believe my lying eyes.
What you perceive as present, and what is actually present, can be different things. Do your eyes (or nose) detect NO2? CO2? CO1 (carbon monoxide)?
Buy an IAQ meter and measure for yourself if you want to be sure.
(Modern codes mostly require some form of makeup air mechanism for a hood rated 400cfm or higher. I’ve never seen a residential kitchen with an actual working setup like this, although it’s common in a well designed commercial kitchen. What actually happens is that lower end / smaller residential kitchens often have combination microwave/hood units, and they work very poorly. Large / high end residential kitchens end up with standalone hoods with far too much flow, poorly sealed ducts, crappy loud blowers, and no makeup air. If you enter the parameters of a residential stove into a commercial kitchen ventilation calculator, you end up with a rather small flow rate, and the high end residential brands love to advertise much larger numbers.)
15 years old setup - made most sense at the time but, if I upgrade some day, it'll be for induction.
Everything about it is better with the exception of an annoying buzz from the induction on occasion.
- My carbon steel pans get to temp basically instantly.
- My cast iron gets to temp in a fraction of the time it took on my gas stove.
- It also works fantastically on my stainless steel pots and tbh it feels like I can get a pot of water to boil in half the time.
- Cleaning induction surfaces is way easier.
- For "specialty stuff" like woks, curved induction is so much cheaper, more convenient, safer, and more approachable than the equivalent gas setups.
This isn't me trying to suggest anyone should be forced to give up gas. It definitely has it's uses. However I really have to recommend trying out a nice, modern induction setup. They are like fucking magic.
What the heck is that? Where in the western world can't you run an electric induction stove? And what would the environmental impacts of that be?
Gas leaks and gas explosions is nothing I see as benefits.
And en electric stove also have many benefits over gas such as automatically turning off, timer based shut off etc.
> What the heck is that?
Try searching for "UPS" on Amazon. How many of the search results would be capable of powering an electric stove (to cook meals) through a several-day electrical outage? If you looked at larger units (and generators) which were capable of doing that - what physical/electrical/safety issues would you face in actually connecting them to a typical residential stove? And once you're into the generators - those have their own fuel safety issues.
> Where in the western world can't you run an electric induction stove?
Anywhere that does not have electrical power available, during a power outage. Which the comment I was replying to very specifically pointed out.
Impulse Labs would like to sell you a really nice 4-pan stove with a built in battery that will ride through a decently long outage.
But there's also the virtue of tech that just works, without everyone having to spend time & money researching/purchasing/maintaining/using backup systems to cover its frequent outages.
Tech like those old gas stoves.
Gas stovetop costs $400 and just works.
As a backup I would recommend a camping stove that uses ethanol over using a UPS system.
Vs. the USA? Further up the chain of replies, this was specified:
>>> Here in New York I lose power several times a year - sometimes for multiple days at a time. In 5 decades I've never lost my gas.
And I know quite a few people in Michigan who had similar experiences last year. Total outage duration for many of them was >2 weeks.
(I'll admit that, these days, "USA isn't really a developed country any more" is a credible argument.)
It'd cost me $20k to install an induction stove, not buying it.
I lose power in SF 3-4 times a year, have never lost gas. Last power outage I cooked with gas and it was great. I have gas heat too, always works.
My newer neighborhood (25 years old) has buried power lines, but it's fed from overhead power lines, so we still have power issues. I'm not advocating for gas over electric, just giving some perspective from another part of the world.
In the North East, usually a wet snow or freezing rain to ice will cause the branches to fall.
In the South, drought will often weaken the trees and winds will will do the rest.
Excessive rain can also cause problems when coupled with wind. The trees topple over, roots and all.
Hurricanes and tornadoes will often cause prolonged outages, note that the wind form these can reach far inland and beyond what we consider the edge of the hurricane.
So unless gas is 1/2 the price of electricity where you are at, induction still wins!
Oh and because gas puts approximately 50% of its heat into the environment and not the cookware, it can cause an increase in AC costs in the summer!
I find it hard to believe given global markets that it is more than half of the cost in more than just a few extreme parts of the world.
Or a decrease in heating costs in the winter. :)
If the massive difference is the pan type, why isn't it almost instant with gas?
Or do gas hobs output way way less energy than an induction hob?
How many kilowatts is yours?
They circumvent laws of heat transfer by pumping energy directly into the pan at the speed of light and creating heat right there.
On an induction hob, the heat is generated by the pan itself. That’s the instant part. The pan itself heats more or less quickly depending mostly on its mass and what it’s made of.
A gas hob is much less efficient in the way heat is transmitted to the pan: the flame irradiates everywhere, not only on the pan, and the air around the flame and the pan moves, carrying heat by convection.
> If the massive difference is the pan type, why isn't it almost instant with gas?
A steel pan heats quickly because it’s light and thin. A cast iron pan heats slowly because it’s thick and heavy (kind of material also plays a role, but steel and cast iron are not too different in that respect).
> Or do gas hobs output way way less energy than an induction hob?
Off the top of my head I think they are comparable. It’s just that most of this heat is wasted.
Electric means the fire part happens at a coal station, gas means it is in your home. And people are surprised there is more crap on the air of their home? Hardly rocket science is it?
And do you know what's cheaper than both? Fume extraction. If the kitchen fume threat warrants legislation, that legislation should specify air quality standards and not stove technology. If those air quality standards can be met by gas stoves with fume extraction, that should be permitted.
"Just use induction" is this thread's "let them eat cake."
You also have to consider that many American kitchens that presently have gas will probably need an electrician to install two-phase power. Admittedly some will already have that, but in the homes built for gas it will be several hundred dollars (at least) just to get the wires put in.
So realistically, working class people get left with inferior traditional electric stoves. The talk about gas bans being fine because induction is better anyway is a "let them eat cake" argument. HN is consistently out of touch with working class reality.
(Especially in areas where working class can afford newly built houses)?
I suspect a cheap electric oven (400 bucks) is a lot cheaper than installing an entire venting system that, in many cases, will require drilling bricks and opening ceilings and walls.
But induction stoves are just better for most users, no need to thing any grand conspiracy why many would prefer that it became more popular. They are safer. They heat faster and are also react immediately to changing heat level like gas stoves.
Gas stoves do have some benefits compared to induction, but most only affect professionals. I'd guess at least 95% of people would prefer induction stoves, all costs being equal.
The subject here is more that in addition to that, every time you use the pool, you have to gobbel down a bit of posion water. But in addition to that, you depend on using that thing almost daily.