00Key a 75% Keyboard | Hacker News Reader

00Key a 75% Keyboard

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82 pointsdudus146 comments

I really do not like these compressed baby keyboards that are missing essential keys.

My perfect keyboard would be something like a 150% with standard full layout but then adding in a bunch of programmable macro keys, I want more than F12! I want F1 through F36. Also a built in coffee grinder, water heater, and there should be a fan under the keys to keep my hands cool. Okay, ignore those last three.

I've been wondering for a while now why these fractional keyboards are so popular. It's some sort of trendy faux-minimalism that I've never been able to wrap my head around.

75% is basically everything except the numpad, so if one isn't a big numpad user it's nice to have your mouse a bit closer.

75% is not exactly this. It mangles the home cluster (pgup, pgdn, home, end, insert, del), often missing "insert" entirely. It also relocates the arrow keys slightly.

If you just want a keyboard without a numpad, it is called TenKeyLess (TKL) or 80%.

For me, it matters. I use the home cluster a lot, including the insert key (for copy and pasting), and because I use many different keyboards (for work, etc...), muscle memory is important, and full size is the most common. So when using a compact keyboard, I like having the keys in the same place more than saving 2 columns.

But to each his own, especially with keyboards.

My comment was more to push back on the silly assertion that the only reason someone would like a fractional board is "trendy faux-minimalism".

I have a TKL on my PC and other than Insert (which I can't remember ever pressing on purpose in the last 15 years) the only other keys a 75% is missing are the cluster with print screen/scroll lock/break.

I'd be annoyed by a 75% if I used Insert for copy/paste etc and switched keyboards all the time, but I'm mostly on Mac so I'm used to Cmd+arrows instead of Home/End and Cmd+C/X/V. But it does have the extra strip on the right for some of those keys I do use, like Del. And now I can now hit every key on the board without really moving my hands much, including those that are normally on the Home cluster.

I could even do with a 65% but I don't want to have to switch layers to hit Esc, and actually do use the function keys for an IDE.

That's fine if you don't mind bending your arm inwards for long periods of time. For me, it's most comfortable having my mouse being more in line with my shoulder than my center

Before I swapped to a split keyboard I liked the numpad-less/fractional keyboards because it allowed my mouse to be in a better spot on my desk as it required me to keep the keyboard centered without having to reach so far to the right to use the mouse.

For me, I just have an external num pad.

I was finding I was getting elbow pain by having to cock my arm a bit to use my mouse.

TKL keyboard for the win

For me it allows me to input whatever I need to input, without leaving home row.

Since you use CTRL and SHIFT without problem, basically just imagine having a few more modifier keys. That's all.

A subset of those is gamers that want the mouse closer to the center, rather than off to the right when using a full keyboard. Especially competitive gamers, because it helps reduce RSI

> because it helps reduce RSI

Really?! I spend so much time on my macbook for work using the trackpad as my primary mouse and it feels horrible for my arms. I could understand t improving APM but on my personal computer I really like having things spread out, it allows me to flex my arms a lot more.

Smaller keyboards just give your mouse a larger workspace and more freedom to reposition. While there are "bad" and "good" positions for RSI, the reality is that being fixed into the "optimal" position with no ability to adjust will also eventually cause problems.

Your ability to vary position is important to staying healthy. More workspace can help with that.

having the arms straight rather than angled inwards (where the trackpad is) also is an ergonomic move...

Wouldn't you want your head/eyes centered on the monitor, not the mouse being held by your arm that's off-center?

I don't understand your comment. Nobody's looking at their mouse (or their keyboard) when gaming.

The seating position and keyboard is centered on the screen, the mouse is off to the right. I've never seen anybody try to center their mouse on the screen- then you'd either be bending your arm inward/across your body or sitting left of center of the screen

When using the standard WASD+mouse arrangement, you don't exactly want to center anything, but rather put the WASD keys at the left hand's natural resting place, and likewise with the mouse and right hand. With many large keyboards, the mouse then ends up colliding with the keyboard, so you have to spread out your arms. With a small keyboard this isn't an issue.

I'm pretty sure most of the time gamers do this, it's to give the mouse more area so they can lower their sensitivity for higher precision.

You can image search "csgo pro player" to get some idea, they're mostly positioned to be ready to flick their arm when they have to aim.

Though I'll admit that I often turn my keyboard slightly when gaming despite not playing FPS, just for comfort.

I used to travel a lot. I limited myself to one backpack. A lot easier to pack a small keyboard. Since I used vim and tmux for years I was already used to modifier keys.

That and I prefer the modifier key approach, you move and contort your hands less. Faster and more ergonomic.

Decent fractional keyboards have buttons that change the meaning of every other key, they're called "layers". You get less keys but you get more options, and 100% less wrist moving.

It is nice for a laptop to have real keys but still small enough to fit in a backpack, which is why I hake a 60%. It does most of what I want.

i have a full size keyboard but it takes up so much desk space I don't use it.

I use a keyboard with 34 keys. Except for being split, the lower number of keys has fixed my RSI as I never have to move my fingers too far.

Why couldn't I use a larger keyboard then? I could, and that's how I started, but having unused keys is just a waste and occupies precious table space.

Of course, they're much easier to travel with too (although I haven't done that yet).

Personally I wanted an ergonomic mechanical keyboard I could shove in my bag and take to the office, and that meant something not-full-size. Once I'd made the decision that it wasn't going to be a full-size keyboard, that meant learning layers on a fractional layout, and it was the need to hammer the layering into my muscle memory that meant my fractional keyboard became my daily driver at home as well.

I only swap it out now if I want to do things in Blender, because that's very keyboard-heavy in a way that really assumes all the keys are laid out in front of you, including the keypad.

They are small and thus take less space on the desk, or in your bag (perfect for traveling and on-site-work). And not all keys are necessary for everyone. Numpad is a big part with little use for many people. And the newer generation of keyboards is often programmable, so you can remap them on very sophisticated levels on the keyboard itself. This reduces the demand for more keys even more.

For example, on my keyboard I have no dedicated cursor-keys, but they are mapped to hjkl and wasd with a thumb-key. Function-keys are similar mapped to number-keys with the same thumb-key. This makes writing from homerow much faster, and I need to move my hands not so often. I basically just must my fingers, instead of the whole hand.

> For example, on my keyboard I have no dedicated cursor-keys, but they are mapped to hjkl and wasd with a thumb-key.

That sounds so bizarre to me, as so many keychords I use every minute of every day involve modifiers plus arrow keys.

Where do you put your thumb when you are using arrow keys? Maybe it's my small hands, but I can't use my right hand thumb to hit anything when I'm on arrow keys, and have to rely on using left hand to press modifiers.

So, I use a keyboard with split space bars, and map the right one to a layer switch key, when I want arrow keys I then hold the right side spacebar, and use ijkl (similar shape to arrow keys). Feels like exactly the same [1] as using arrow keys except I don't have to move my hand.

[1] Okay, 'I' is slightly off because row-staggered nonsense but honestly it just took me two days to get familiar to it.

I'd say the majority of office jobs won't really use arrow keys. Most people will rather use the mouse to move around, and engineers would use something closer to the center of the keyboard (like hjkl).

I have capslock mapped to ESC&CTRL, so my pinky is also around the important modifiers. And because of vim and gaming, hjkl & wsad are habitual for me anyway.

The ergonomics of a full-size keyboard are atrocious, because they weren't designed with mice in mind. You've got a relatively unimportant set of keys occupying the exact piece of desk space that a mouse should be. Unless your shoulders are three feet wide, you'll either end up with your QWERTY keys too far to the left, your mouse too far to the right, or some awkward compromise.

If you really need a num pad - most people don't - then you can get a separate one and position it to the left of your keyboard.

Size matters; I like the extra real estate for my mouse hand more than I need the numpad. Allows me to take a better posture and I'm no longer banging my mouse into the keyboard from time to time.

If the "tenkey" cluster was on the left hand side of the keyboard in the same way the Sidewinder X8 allowed you to configure it (keypad was detachable), that would be perfect, but nobody makes that for some reason.

And before you ask, I can't use 60% boards specifically because I need F2, F5, PageUp/PageDn, and Delete, none of which are actual buttons on that kind of keyboard. The only place a right-handed computer user is in need of desk real estate is to the right of the text-entry part of the keyboard (and where your hands go at the bottom, obviously); keyboards are free to expand upwards with function keys and leftwards with the non-text-entry part.

What’s “essential” varies a lot between users. As a mobile dev I’ve been using 60% and 65% boards almost exclusively since 2015 and haven’t missed the removed keys much at all.

Really though, to me the problem with full-size keyboards isn’t the number of keys but their positioning. The traditional full sized layout was designed prior to mice being common, which immediately becomes evident when you try to center the alpha cluster of such boards with how doing so pushes the mousing area uncomfortably far off to the right. So-called “southpaw” boards fix this by putting the home/end/arrows column and numpad on the left side of the board instead, but sadly this layout hasn’t broken into the mainstream and is only available in comparatively expensive small-batch enthusiast boards.

This is why for now I use 60%/65%/75% with a separate numpad on the left, which largely replicates the advantages of a southpaw board with added flexibility (the numpad can be put away when not needed).

How do you guys not miss F keys? I can press e.g. Ctrl+F5 with one hand but I would have to use both hands to press Ctrl+Fn+5.

I primarily use macOS, where shortcuts have been almost exclusively mnemonic (e.g. Command-R → Reload) since the earliest Mac models. F-key usage is relegated mostly to lazy ports from other platforms.

This. I use the function keys so rarely the whole row of keys except for the escape key could be taken out.

...which makes macOS-using developers' negative reactions to the 2016 MBP touch bar kind of odd/ironic, no? We all agree that nobody needs the F keys on a Mac... so why was it such a big problem when they got virtualized under the equivalent of a car infotainment display?

(Yeah, the escape key was taken out as well at first, but then it was brought back, and people still were quite hateful toward the touch bar after that.)

People use the brightness, volume, and music keys, rather than the Fn-modified “F” versions.

The biggest issues with the touch bar, from my perspective:

- It couldn’t be used without being looked at, due to it having no physical keys

- It was always kind of hacky, being essentially a long thin Apple Watch (down to running a watchOS variant) that would occasionally freeze up

I think it would’ve been better received had it been composed of Stream Deck-like display keys powered by macOS itself which would’ve brought much of the dynamicism of the touch bar while also keeping tactile feedback and eschewing bolted-on watchOS-variant bugginess.

> had it been composed of Stream Deck-like display keys

Mind you, a majority of the useful "things the touchbar can change into" involved non key-shaped interaction surfaces. The volume and brightness sliders; the iMovie/FCP video scrubber; the keyboard autocomplete suggestions; etc.

The only way this would have worked is if arbitrary regions could have been dynamically raised/tactile-ized to match the interaction elements being shown.

The last time someone tried to make a highly-tactile touchscreen we got the BlackBerry Storm, and it was awful. I owned one and dropped it in a lake by accident. I did not miss it.

That said, a touchscreen with software-positioned raised areas would be very neat, if it existed.

We have bendy touchscreens these days that withstand seemingly-impossible 180-degree bends, so some of the hard work may have already been done.

From 10,000 feet up, all we really need are some mechanical actuators to allow it to be segmented in a way that can be felt.

(Or. Electromagnets, and ferrofluid. Under the display.)

The only F keys I use are F11 and F12, and only by accident when I'm trying to backspace. And don't get me started on the capslock key.

I love the Caps Lock key, because I remap it to Compose.

Once you learn and get used to the macOS's shortcuts, you can totally ignore F-keys.

> Ctrl+F5 with one hand Maybe I have small hands or a bigger keyboard but I have to stretch hand out entirely from my pinky to my index finger to do this with one hand; how do you do this comfortably?

Layers. I can also press ctrl f5 with one hand.

Your full size keyboard is an ergonomic prison.

1. No application I use needs Ctrl+Fx

2. If I did, I would've either remap it or create a layer to make pressing it easy.

I have the modifier keys both sides of my keyboard. That way Ctrl + [Layer2] + [key] is no more awkward than Ctrl + Shift + [key].

I used to make map right Ctrl -> Ctrl+Fn for that reason

I only use keyboards running QMK or ZMK, so:

My Caps Lock key is a Control/Escape key (when tapped it behave like a Escape, when hold it's Control), and my left Control is a one shot layer switch key [1], which means I tap LCtrl once, and then press Caps Lock + 5 to get Ctrl+F5. Doable with single hand and more ergonomic as I have an unusually small hand.

[1] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/docs/one_sho...

This is why I would not use less than a 75% keyboard. I don't see the point in saving vertical space (unless it's a laptop).

> The traditional full sized layout was designed prior to mice being common, which immediately becomes evident when you try to center the alpha cluster of such boards with how doing so pushes the mousing area uncomfortably far off to the right.

I developed tendonitis on my right elbow because of this. I fixed it by moving the mouse to the left. It took a few months to get used to it, but now my brain doesn't recognize the difference anymore.

Same for me. A side benefit is improved neuroplasticity, but the bummer is reduced options for mice. I use Microsoft's ambidextrous models, which are barely mediocre.

I tried proper left hand mice for a while (naturally-right-handed, switched to left-hand mousing for RSI reasons similar to above), and eventually I just embraced the idea of using a right-hand mouse with my left hand. It feels completely natural now. As an added benefit, I can use any "normal" mouse by just moving it to the left of the keyboard.

All the superlight mouses I know work great with the left hand.

I.e. https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/products/gaming-mice/pro-x-s...

You can also combine this one with the charging pad to get a wireless mouse that you never have to charge

you're correct there about the southpaws. I wish they would break in! I have two SP111's and they are truly my endgame boards. Had them for years and haven't once had a desire to go look for anything different. Truly perfect for exactly what I want. I feel like a lot of other people as well would love it, if only they could try it. But .... this was a VERY expensive board, and was only available in a limited time group buy. I have no idea if it's even available for purchase right now.

One of my favorite keyboards for a very long time was made by Cirque (the inventors of the Glidepoint trackpad) and was called, as near as I can tell, simply the "Cirque Glidepint Keyboard."[0]

It was a pretty normal 101-key layout, with mechanical clicky-switches[1]. Except, in place of the inverted T arrows was a small-ish Glidepoint. The three buttons for the touch pad were near the front edge of the keyboard, on the far left -- near Ctrl and Alt.

It lived clamped into an example of one of the old-school sliding, articulated, heavy steel keyboard-holder-widgets under my desk, and I almost never saw it.

Instead, I'd be typing and using GUIs with my desk completely free of input devices and ready for every other manner of thing that desks are useful for, with my hands under my desk just above my lap. My right hand barely had to move to reach for the pointer (I even got good at using it with my pinky finker), and it felt completely natural to use my left hand for the pointer-buttons (rather than the hateful contortions required by more-modern touchpad implementations).

It was very, very quick to use in those fairly early days of useful GUIs on desktop PCs, and the lack of inverted-T arrow keys was never problematic for me at all since I grew up with a near-clone of the IBM Model F's layout -- the Chicony KB-5160.

And man, that arrangement sure was comfortable.

[0]: I cannot find a photo of of the old Glidepoint Keyboard, and I strongly suspect that very few of these were ever made. I did find a review, though: https://www.chicagotribune.com/1995/09/08/cirque-glidepoint-...

[1]: I do not know who made the switches. Sorry, mech keyboard fans.

I have a keyboard that's "missing" essential keys, but I have a special key that I can press with my thumb that changes that every single key does (it's called a Layer). So I never need to move my wrist to press the arrow keys: just hold the thumb button and press hjkl. Page up is layer+t, page down is layer+g. And so on. It's great, my wrists thank me. I can even program a macro that will trigger an OS shortcut that will send a packet to my Smart Coffee Grinder or tell Alexa to call 911. Or have the F479001600 key you mentioned.

There are a bunch of keyboards with this functionality. I personally use a Dygma Raise.

I'm familiar with layers; in fact, I have an extensive layer setup in KDE. But then the problem becomes that I can never remember which key under what layer does what action. So, I basically use four keys from my other layers and have given up on all the others I set up.

My poor memory is my unique problem. Layering won't help. Having dedicated keys that I can see, though, helps me remember what those do. As someone else suggested, I can put custom labels on the extra keys.

You have it configured in KDE. The cool keyboards allow configuring layers in the keyboard firmware.

Yeah it took me a while to get used to my layers, but now it's all muscle memory and I don't even remember which key does what.

Layouts being configurable in firmware is a must for keyboards for me at this point. Having to rely on OS/DE configuration or especially crappy third party software sucks.

I like keyboards with layers support, but layers aren't a replacement for sufficient keys. Holding down the layer button means another finger unavailable for hotkeys. For instance, on my keyboard (ZSA Moonlander) I have the function keys in an alternate layer. This isn't a problem for a normal press (layer shift + 2 => F2), but it makes pressing something like Ctrl+Shift+F2 rather painful.

Yes, for such shortcuts that I use frequently I can create special custom keys in layers, but when using new apps or particularly complicated apps with lots of hotkeys (IntelliJ) that doesn't scale.

I have a ZSA Moonlander but it makes me want to make a Dactyl Manuform of some of the larger sizes just for those extra keys.

https://wylderbuilds.com/all-sizes

Crazy idea I've always wanted to try: somehow hack a USB foot-pedal to act as a layer key.

(Hard, because usually the layers are implemented inside the keyboard's firmware, rather than being processed by the OS. Maybe the foot-pedal would need to plug into the keyboard.)

Layers in software are thing with eg. kmonad or kanata

Doesn't work for keys that don't send keysyms by default but instead act as e.g. media keys if you're not holding a modifier. (Media keys are their own USB HID usage page; the OS keyboard driver doesn't see them.)

You should try to use OSL instead of MO (or TT) as the layer key action: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/docs/one_sho...

I eventually went with home-row mods and a miryoku based layout. I've found home-row mods to be quite finicky with respect to timing, but I think overall they are better than not.

https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/b7yOD/latest/0

I have a Moonlander and regret listening to all of the enthusiast reviews about it. It feels great to type on, but the missing keys and blank keycaps for a lot of keys is slowly driving me crazy. I dabble in a lot of things but don't really code anymore for my job. So it's not worth it for me to customize my keyboard and layers for whatever IDE today that I won't use for long. And I switch from PC to Mac to Linux a lot, so the having to keep all the keyboard shortcuts straight in my head while using a minimal, somewhat unlabeled keyboard is impossible.

Sounds like it ain’t worth much at all. Wanna trade?

I got a dell media keyboard I bought at Goodwill. No lie it has a lot of pointless keys dating back to the dinosaurs and comes with extra skin cells. You can tap Scroll Lock until ya ded.

You joke about the fan but I'd love a keyboard heater for winters. I keep it cold in here to save $ but I have a hard time keeping my hands comfortable.

Just use any thin and light gaming laptop made in the past 5 years in clamshell mode with the exhaust pointed at your keyboard. That’ll keep one’s hands toasty even doing mundane tasks, those things somehow manage to be space heaters even at moderate load levels.

How about putting an electric terrarium heater mat under your keyboard? Might that help?

I bought a electric desk pad from Aliexpress for this reason... helps a bit. But heating the whole room feels better ofc..

There's always some truth to a joke and I wouldn't mind heated/cooled keys.

If you're not aware, such a thing already exists!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B87H383N

I can highly recommend it, unless you've got a cat.

Fingerless gloves are my go-to.

The mouse hand seems to get coldest. Might want to look into that.

That niche is usually filled with something like a Stream Deck alongside your keyboard, though personally, I'd recommend MIDI controllers.

You get a lot of extra buttons very cheaply, using an open, easily-readable protocol. Get a label maker to put some labels on top of the buttons, and you're good to go!

In my experience it's a much easier option when compared to trying to say to your computer "key A has two functions, depending on which keyboard I press it on".

Do you mean the thing that looks like a tiny piano or the thing that looks more squarish with 8x8 buttons that light up?

Some project in this space https://github.com/michd/mmpd

Both work, they're all just sending digital versions of notes! You can find one for every perceivable amount of buttons you might need.

My hobby is electronic music, so I tilt towards grids over tiny pianos (though I own both). The smallest one I own is AKAI LPD8, which gives me 8 buttons, 8 knobs, and a couple of modifier keys for less than half the price of a Stream Deck.

It's not that Stream Deck is particularly expensive ($150), but I just can't justify it to myself when I'm aware of all the MIDI controller marvels you could get for like $100.

Ha, I thought you were misspelling Steam Deck at first. Funny because I first got into electronic music by installing VCV Rack 2 on my Steam Deck.

What do you use to map midi commands to keystrokes?

I don't map them to keystrokes at all, I have a (too specific to my needs to be open sourced) Python script that runs in the background, detects me pressing a MIDI note, and then does stuff. Think: a button for most frequent folders I need to open using VS Code, or lowering the volume (separate knobs for Firefox and Spotify), or a knob for dimming the lights in my living room / home office, things of that nature.

I built it using Mido (https://github.com/mido/mido), though there's so many other options for whichever language you prefer.

Meh, getting my mouse closer to my keyboard pays off in reduced shoulder and neck pain.

I bought the Keychron V6 a couple weeks ago, and I'm loving it. It only has 4 extra keys, but it's nice to have a single button that builds and flashes a device, rather than a multi-key combo.

Also runs QMK/Via, which means I can reprogram those buttons on device, rather than having to make the apps correspond to the keyboard.

But why?

The whole point is that you can access all the "essential" keys with modifiers like Fn.

I find it so natural to Page Up/Dn using Fn+Up/Dn that when I'm on a keyboard with dedicated Page Up/Dn keys it just seems like this bizarre waste of space.

Plus the keyboard is so big I have to keep moving my hands all over the place! A 75% keyboard keeps everything within distance of the home row, as it should be. Faraway keys are just inefficient and not ergonomic.

There's no need for F36 when you can just use Shift+F12 or Ctrl+F12 or Fn+F12 or whatever you want.

Also, a compact keyboard keeps your mouse closer which is good for ergonomics as well.

I don't see any missing essentials on this keyboard (even pg up is there), but some of the even smaller form factors actually remove the arrow keys, and using fn for those gets irritating super quickly.

I've never really understood why people pay more for the kind of gimped keyboard. They're sleeker, sure, but even if you almost never use the special keys they're missing, it will still be annoying the .1% of the time you need that key. I guess at that point you just grab another keyboard, but if you have to have a spare full sized keyboard anyway, why not just use that?

I use a $30 mechanical keyboard I bought from a six-letter brand on Amazon four years ago and I've been much happier than when I tried one of those "optimized" compressed keyboards.

> …even if you almost never use the special keys they're missing, it will still be annoying the .1% of the time you need that key. I guess at that point you just grab another keyboard…

Unnecessary with layers, e.g. FN + 1 = F1, which covers the 0.1% use case well enough.

Fair enough, to each their own. Personally I have always preferred to use a full size keyboard; the Macbook Pro keyboard is good enough but I will almost always plug in a clacky mechanical keyboard if I'm at home.

Luckily the keyboard enthusiast community has something for everyone: https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4

I'd wish someday HID standard would include a way for an input device to send arbitrary Unicode codepoints (with a few codes reserved for modifiers) rather than scan codes. The design made sense in PC/XT era, but it feels super dated today.

Something like a Hyper7 https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4

Or a 122 key Model M https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Prod...

> My perfect keyboard would be something like a 150% with standard full layout but then adding in a bunch of programmable macro keys, I want more than F12! I want F1 through F36.

Not 36 but I've got one of these IBM Model M clickety clik keyboard with 24 function keys:

https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/9i1aef/24_functio...

But that said: I switched to a 60% HHKB more than a decade ago and I don't regret it. I prefer to use modifiers and less keys than more keys and longer hands / fingers travel.

Maybe you'd like this Wey Tech MK06:

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=15102

Yes, but, not to the right, let it grow to the left!

I would like extra keys, but at the same time I hate that my mouse is that far to the right, and all because of the num keys that I NEVER use.

That said, my Logitech MX Keys is the perfect keyboard, if they were ever to release TKL (80%) or some variation or even 75% layout - I would pay top buck for that!

Anyone here working at Logitech? :)

+1! I also own the Logitech MX Keys and would buy a TKL right away. I love the low profile keys

I do wish the keys were labeled for Mac or Windows only rather than "opt | start", "cmd | alt" but beggars can't be choosers

That volume key next to F12 is annoying AF too... It makes my OCD flare up had

I mostly don't mind them, except for the ones with shortened right-shift key. Those I have to contort my right pinky finger uncomfortably to use Shift, which I use much more frequently than the arrow keys (since I use Vim keybinds for literally everything possible).

The smaller keyboards are very popular for gaming because they are more ergonomic and free up more room on the desk.

However, if someone is in the market for a gaming keyboard right now, I would only recommend Wooting as at this point in time there is no HE keyboard with latency has low as Wooting.

Personally, I found the perfect keyboard in Ergodox [0][1]. Ortholinear, split, programmable (and open-source) keyboard with hot-swappable switches.

I've had my Ergodox EZ [2] for ~7 years now. The biggest problem that happened was that some of the switches started malfunctioning - fixing which was a matter of literally 5 minutes.

I don't think I would want to go back to non-split, non-ortholinear keyboards nowadays. 00Key looks cool though, that's for sure! :)

[0] https://github.com/Ergodox-io

[1] https://www.ergodox.io/

[2] https://ergodox-ez.com/

Had ergodox for 3 years, moved to moonlander using their base mounts to float on gas arms. Huge fan

I will add having very wide shoulders makes a split that much more ergonomic for someone of similar body type. Cool project btw

What are gas arms? Any pics of this?

I had exactly the same experience.

After using the Ergodox since around 2020 it is hard to see going back to a non-split keyboard. It helps that I also swapped to a trackball at the same time and I find the ergo of having a trackball between a split keyboard to be excellent.

Also, having the backspace key as the "home" key for my left thumb has greatly increased my typing speed....I make a lot of mistakes.

that you make a lot of mistakes isn't a good compliment for a keyboard :-)

I have bad news about every keyboard I have ever used....

Which trackball do you use?

Logitech MX Ergo.

I always feel the first thing I would do with a split keyboard is 3D print a baseplate to keep the two halves aligned. Which.might.just.work.

good move... but some rubber like pad at the table make them 99,9% fixed! and dust marks your ideal position that MAY is changed/adjusted slightly after some time spend with the keyboard

Thanks for the input, appreciated!

> I don't think I would want to go back to non-split, non-ortholinear keyboards nowadays.

Same for me but even further, after using the Glove80[0] I don't want to go back to non-colstag, non-keywell keyboards.

[0] https://www.moergo.com/pages/glove80-ergonomic-keyboard-desi...

I'm afraid to try keywell keyboards since that would drastically limit layout options.

For a split column-stagger kb I can just order a PCB, MCUs, switches, keycaps and after minor soldering it's ready to go.

With concave boards you need a case of non-trivial design.

The problem with Ergodox (and Moonlander) are the horrific thumb cluster that only makes sense if you have very large hands/fingers.

My favorite is Mitosis, which has large thumb clusters very close to the alphas.

I personally find the two large buttons in the thumb clusters to be easy to access. I don't think the entire thumb cluster is designed to be used commonly while touch typing. There are plenty of pinky reachable buttons you can map needed keys to.

I also had similar concerns. Their voyager keyboard should solve that concern and I’m strongly considering using it. I’ve had their Planck EZ for maybe 2 years now (on Dvorak) and later got their Moonlander but I think it was too much for me and went back to the Planck shortly after.

Ben Vallack has a good video on the voyager[^0] and many other setups and workflows

[0]: https://youtu.be/dg2TT1OJlQs?si=vNM6fOK7ua9KCIky

Thanks for this! My current mechanical keyboard is great, but doesn't have an ergonomic layout. I tried a different split mechanical keyboard once and it was way too small for my hands, and didn't have built-in tenting, so it ended up being horrible for me. This appears to be a much better option & I'm going to check it out now.

And for those reading this thread, if you need a mouse, I've been extremely satisfied with Evoluent's vertical mouse[0]. Unlike most mouse manufacturers, they're very serious about selling what customers actually need - durable hardware, multiple sizes options for every model, just enough extra buttons, and a wired/wireless option for each model. Can't possibly recommend them enough - I went through 3 other vertical mice and absolutely hated all of them (all of them too small, and shockingly Anker's is very low quality; but really I don't trust any with a cheap BT connector).

[0] https://evoluent.com

For pointing devices.. I've really loved using a trackball. I got an Elecom Huge.

Neat but no good place for arrow keys.

Typically with split keyboards like this, you'd put the arrow keys on home row (or ijkl or esdf etc.), and access the arrow keys by holding a Fn key.

On a traditional keyboard, you can't access the arrow keys with your hands rested on home row. You have to move your hands to reach those keys.

Holding a Fn key brings more of the keyboard's functionality to within easy reach of the hands, at the cost that the keyboard is somewhat more complicated to use.

Good summary. I wouldn't buy one without obvious arrow keys however.

I backed ergodox-ez on indiegogo in 2016. I moved to the moonlander mostly for the built in wrist pads. support has been amazing. I just got a replacement for a cracked piece of plastic that I can repair myself. https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/teardown

The thing I like most is the split and I have customized the layout to my working style. I really should learn to use layers or try some of the "hacks" https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/printables.

I came really close to buying the Moonlander, but I couldn't get over the fact that they limit macro length because otherwise, they claim, people would put their password in. I'm not going to, but I have lots of other reasons for long macro outputs.

Good example of form over function. This is nice if you want to impress your YouTube fan followers or get a few likes for when you post on Reddit or other social media.

Split keyboards should be your go to if you are spending considerable time on your computer. A lot of back issues, shoulder pains and RSI issues just disappeared after making the switch.

I could never get used to ergonomic keyboards. I actually spend a considerable amount of my day typing single handed across the entire QWERTY so I don't have to remove my hand from the mouse. I developed the habit working on far too many apps with bad/missing keyboard shortcuts or broken tab ordering.

For me I wanted a smaller keyboard, but one that still included the numpad and ended up with this custom build:

https://i.imgur.com/H2sddCI.jpg

I use a fullsize board at work, but at home I prefer the slightly smaller footprint that I got in that design.

I get that, I've practiced with my ergo board for like a year and still don't use it exclusively bc of one-handing stuff (though learning a new layout at the same time cert. didn't help).

There's a layout based on multi-key chords called Taipo that has this really interesting "reversable" property, in that each half is a mirrored copy of the other, so you can type any letter (or eg. tab or return) with either hand. I think that's super cool, but don't think chording is for me, so I'm trying to imagine what a compromise might look like.

What's a good way to contact you?

I have a product question regarding one of the comments you've made in 2022.

I added my email to my profile if you could please email me.

This is cool but I wish I could just have a 75% portable Bluetooth keyboard. I can't justify buying a foldable phone with a million screens but would love a Psion like keyboard with 4 and a half almost full size rows that I can slide out from below my phone with no folding and just use directly without getting in the way of my rear camera. Has anyone seen anything like that? I am really happy with laptop scissor switch rubber dome keyboard profiles, I loved the Psion but I just want a Bluetooth keyboard. Sorry it's not directly related!

I might be wrong, but in this case I think the 75% refers to the layout, not the physical size of the keys.

https://www.keyboard.university/100-courses/keyboard-sizes-l...

It's a percentage of the 'total number of keys,' insofar that a 'normal' keyboard is a 100% keyboard.

Oh okay, I guess I want 65% then in terms of the keys it has! Thanks.

Those exist!

I googled 65% bluetooth keyboard and this is the first result:

https://www.cherryamericas.com/mx-lp-2-1-compact-wireless

No idea if it's any good or not.

In my experience, only Logitech seems to have figured out decent battery life in wireless keyboards. Even with the lighting effects turned off, most mechanical keyboards have terrible battery life (often less than a week).

My gripe is that there are lots and lots of great small keyboards out there being made by hobbyists and small companies, but none of them offer scissor switch options! I'd really like something closer to a modern Apple laptop keyboard. I've been using a Lenovo Trackpoint II which is close, but I don't really like it.

Thanks, I really want something more like a Psion keyboard but a tad smaller to fit in the dimensions I have available, there is no room for any wasted space but I want to be able to input shell commands easily and dislike the idea I'd have to fold and unfold a keyboard to have a good typing experience. I already have a poor quality rubber dome keyboard with no scissor switch mechanism so it's not like a laptop experience like on a Psion.

Best I can offer is a Blackberry-style non-sliding mono-slabic configuration or is it conflagration? I'm not affiliated in any way nor do I vouch for this just sharing info. https://www.clicks.tech/

Thanks, it's interesting but I use shell scripting on Android and need to type the pipe characters and so on fairly quickly.

It’s really hard to get excited about a keyboard with non-split space bar in 2024, and firmware other than qmk/zmk.

Nice! As someone that recently started on this hobby, I love my 75% custom mechanical keyboard.

One thing though, custom firmwares aren't popular on this hobby. Right now, QMK/VIA support are pretty much a must on the community.

I still wonder why there isn't a DIY option that builds in a touchpad or a usable trackball. It's great for bed / home theatre PC (HTPC) use, and some of us are just used to it

There are existing keyboards out there, like the logitech K-something for HTPCs, or then niche (and expensive) options that you need to call HP or Lenovo to order, but I'm very close to just buying the bottom of the framework laptop and building one myself, although the touchpad on the Framework is medium good, at best (as are most touchpads that aren't from big A)

Since you’re ok with diy have you looked at boards you can add a pimoroni trackball to? I haven’t used it personally but have seen a few of them.

https://ryanis.cool/cosmos/beta

The perfect keyboard for me has been the Kinesis Freestyle Pro. Split keyboard with all the keys you would want plus 10 macro keys on the left side you can map to anything. There is absolutely no way I could go back to using any other keyboard after using this for a few years now. Shoulder and wrist pain completely gone.

I really want a portable full size keyboard: IE, a full size keyboard that comes with a protective case so it's easier to put in a bag. Perhaps the keyboard can break into two pieces so it's easier to fit in a smaller bag?

It's probably simplest to just build a case for your favorite keyboard.

Nicely done! I thought I was cool when I soldered my kit keyboard from KBDFans; now I gotta step up my game!

Do you have a .GIF for that rotating rainbow effect, or a sound test?

If OP is reading, instead of placing 80 individual resistors you can use SIP network arrays to reduce the part count (they come in bussed or isolated). $.45 each.

Eg: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/resistor-networks...

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