Crows Are Self-Aware Just Like Humans, and They May Be as Smart as Gorillas | Hacker News Reader

Crows Are Self-Aware Just Like Humans, and They May Be as Smart as Gorillas

popularmechanics.com

82 pointsnithinj32 comments

The article's headline states unequivocally that crows are self aware. But the presented evidence seems rather thin and criticism of this very evidence is being presented at the end of the article (as I understand the architecture of the article: "crows are snart. Now findings suggest they are self aware erc."). I genuinely don't understand how this is not clickbait.

That’s because it is clickbait. Self awareness doesn’t even have a proper testable definition much less verified proof via experiments that wouldn’t immediately be questioned as philosophically fraught.

That’s not to say I don’t personally believe the existence of self awareness in other animals - I do. I just think the bar is incredibly high for actually proving it.

Isn't the 'know it's you in a mirror' a common definition?

One of many, yes.

i saw ravens attacking themselves at a door mirror years ago

Let’s not be too quick to dismiss a whole species based on anecdotal observation of a few idiots.

https://wegotthiscovered.com/social-media/the-reflexes-of-th...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4818090/Man-tries-f...

I've seen humans talking to themselves in the mirror...

Didn’t Travis Bickle punch a mirror?

Travis Bickle wasn't a real person.

Indeed! By what definition are humans "self-aware"? How do I know everyone else but me is self-aware or just well-programmed automatons that act as though they have the same kinds of experiences as me?

I definitely know some humans that make doubt blanket statements like "humans are self aware", but I have no formalized way to call them stupid.

You have to wonder if there's some 1-5% of humans who don't meet the bar of being self aware. They seem to exist as parodies of people who can't learn or reflect on past actions. Being on a continuum would make a lot of sense with the sharpest crows and dullest people maybe crossing over a bit.

In Singapore, there has been somewhat amusing news from the last few years of crows attacking people, often people who likely were abusive with the crows, as they are likely to remember people's faces. My wife and I have taken a different tact to dealing with crows who settle on our clothes rack outside our flat window. We wave at them and greet them and they sort of understand we mean them no harm and merely gawk with curiousity. I just wish they were intelligent enough so we could ask them not to stand on our clothes.

Mynas on the other hand can all die for all I care. I used to be an animal lover and generally am save for the Javan Mynas. They're an invasive species actually, and thus they are everywhere here to the point of overpopulation, and having had a number of fine pants ruined by their (literal) shit has made ne hate them with a passion.

Get a PVC block to mount on top of the rack so they stand on it instead of on the clothes?

I used to like watching Javan Mynas have their "street fights" when I lived in SG. The Mynas gather in a circle while 2 or 3 are fighting in the circle. The ones watching make all kinds of noise.

It begins...

> I just wish they were intelligent enough so we could ask them not to stand on our clothes.

Just because they don’t speak our language doesn’t mean they aren’t intelligent enough to understand. This seems like a case for basic training and positive reinforcement.

You can try setting up an alternative perch for them. Then when you see crows on that perch, go over and feed them something they like. But offer it only to those on the “right” perch, not the ones on the clotheslines. They should be quick to pick up the rule.

But you may start to get other crows coming over too, so unless you have dreams of becoming a Disney princess or Marvel villain, perhaps consult with a professional first.

This was my main deterrent with crows. Two knew they were doing something that annoyed me, I was considering to feed them grapes but I didn't want their friends coming.

> They should be quick to pick up the rule.

"If we go to the clothesline, the nice guy will give us something on the perch".

No, you never call them to the perch, you only feed them when they’re already there to begin with. The perch and clothesline may not even need to be right next to each other, depending on the situation.

9 years in Singapore, and I’ve never gotten Myna feces on my pants (nor anywhere else on my person)

you live in condo and have cleaner is it

I softened my anti-Myna stance recently after I saw some of them devouring cockroaches that were escaping from the refuse shoot of an HDB.

I used to feed the crows where I worked at the time, and they had an interesting ritual they went through. One crow would be at the highest point near the food and the other crows would take their portion first and then the crow that was doing most of the caw-ing would take the rest. Sometimes the non-alpha crows would be in a row along the edge of the building, ready to take their turn.

Maybe I was just more attuned to hearing crows, but during that time and for a few years afterwords I would notice crows making their noises as I walked around town, like they were keeping tabs on me. Definitely interesting birds.

Crows are indeed very intelligent. I've read some studies that demonstrate that crows are capable of using tools, remembering human faces, and even engaging in tasks that require advanced reasoning. They can be observed fashioning tools out of various materials to access food or solve problems, which is a behavior traditionally associated with higher-order cognitive abilities.

Seems like wetware compute can be much denser then, if those intelligence claims hold up.

Anyone who has worked with animals as well as human children will know all about this. Humans are animals and many animals are just as much "people" as as a two year old. What you make of that is up to you. Some people could care less if most of humanity were to be butchered. Some people will cry if they step on a grasshopper.

I've always loved crows. They seem to be the most human creatures I've ever met. Always fighting and yelling but also ready to gang up on another bird that messes with any of them.

Some crows enjoy skiing: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1WupH8oyrAo&pp=ygULQ3JvdyBza2lpb...

https://archive.ph/wOAMY

Quickly scanned the title as "Crowds Are Self-Aware ... as Smart as Gorillas".

Seems plausible.

During lockdown the crows in my area pulled out all the dog poop bags from the bins and open them. Probably feasted on them too.

Oh, yes, crows will dine on dog turds. I find them in the bird bath from time to time, as the crows apparently like to let the turd soak for a bit before feasting (and then either give up, or forget about it). :-(

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