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Comment by perch56 | Hacker News Reader

This effective solution has been in use for a number of years now in cities throughout Czechia, Poland, Romania, Estonia and probably many others around Europe. I wish we could see a faster uptake of this approach in Ireland.

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You maybe interested to know the TfL were the first metro system to use this system, they actually developed most of the technology themselves, and now sell it to a number of other cities.

here’s another fun fact: TfL turned on contactless payments for all their stations without any apparent changes in their user facing hardware. one day the same oyster card reader started accepting contactless payments. i’m sure it was not as simple as turning on a switch but it looked that way :)

Yes, but it will inevitably lead to paper tickets being removed completely, which has already happened in some places. That is an absolute nightmare both in terms of privacy and in terms of ceding power to the credit card duopoly.

For the same reason that we need cash, we need to keep paper tickets at least as an option. I'm surprised the sentiment in this thread is so strongly in favor of cards; normally HN is a bit more cash-friendly.

You can buy an Oyster card and top it up with cash.

I believe Oyster cards are to be retired in due course

It seems that you need some way for people without credit cards to pay and the OP is about TfL trying to get away from cash for paper tickets.

That sounds like a bad idea, considering that children and tourists are very likely to not have a credit card (or at least not necessarily a compatible one).

I think the tourists argument is rapidly fally, but not children (though they are available in the UK via providers like Go Henry). Credit/debit cards also won't solve the season-ticket issue.

I'm not aware of any plans to do so, not least because while cards have overtaken Oyster for pay as you go, Oyster season tickets / travel cards still remains a very significant use case. As do free / discounted children Oyster cards.

Neither has a credit/debit-card based viable solution at present that'd be tolerable.

[citation needed]

Paper tickets can also be tracked with ease and they can only be purchased at places guaranteed to have CCTV, so...

The future is facial recognition instead of paper/electronic tickets; already being used in China, Russia and other such advanced countries.

Agreed. We need the contactless payment scheme.

For what its worth, you can use Leap for Bus Eireann and other services[1].

I think Irish Rail (excluding the Free Travel Scheme[2]) is the hold-out, in rural areas, as Bus Eireann and Irish Rail are the only services available in those areas.

While not the contactless payment scheme inferred from the article, it would still be a viable alternative to paper tickets.

[1] - https://www.transportforireland.ie/fares/leap-card/

[2] - https://www.gov.ie/en/service/9bba61-free-travel-scheme/

Edit: formatting

Where would you tap? I used to live near Clara train station in Offaly and there I just... walked on the train. I suppose they could add readers, of course.

I thought they'd added the gates to all the stations? Certainly I see them a lot, even though they're generally open in more rural areas.

In Farrenfore you just get on the train. It’s a toss up on whether anybody will check your ticket on your journey to Dublin.

Huh, wow. Like you can just walk on at Mallow, but they do have the gates if you need to tap.

Mallow is in the Cork commuter zone; you can use a leap card there. The issue is more around stations where you currently can’t use a leap card at all.

Actually, I guess I haven't stopped anywhere that isn't in a commuter zone, so it makes sense that I wasn't aware of this.

Such contactless readers are the norm in the Netherlands. There are no ticket gates; it is still an honesty system, but one is expected to tap on before you board the train. They are sensibly located near the station entrance, so you also don't need to make a detour to find them.

Sounds nice! I've been caught on the wrong side of the barrier at Hilversum a few times due to malfunctioning gates, etc

Apparently there are some stations which still have ticket gates, but I haven't seen any in the rather short time I've been in the Netherlands - they seem to be concentrated in metropolitan areas[1], and I've only been in the somewhat more rural[2] province of Limburg. As it happens, though, I have never actually used the OV-chipcard myself, as I always use an Interrail pass when travelling any further than Belgium from my home country of Britain. I just get on the train - even more reason to like the 'gateless' platforms, because it's always the people with less usual tickets like Interrail that fall through the cracks with systems that try to be too clever.

[1]: https://www.ns.nl/binaries/_ht_1583338071691/content/assets/...

[2]: https://mastodon.social/@rubenivangaalen/109705862906000821

Just readers on poles; smaller potentially unattended Dublin and Cork commuter zone stations have them. Same thing as used at Luas stops.

I've been using contactless for the majority of UK train and tube travel for many years now. Phone is most convenient, but adds a significant stress factor!

You can also setup “Express mode” in Apple Pay that works with TFL. You don’t have to unlock your phone/watch or press anything you just scan it and it works (like a physical card)

https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-pay/transport/

It works when the phone is out of battery? This is the use case that makes it difficult for me (for the record, I don't have an Apple phone either)

Yes it does, it says so in the link

No, it will work on power reserve, but it won't (logistically can't) work when you have literally run out.

This ought to be incredibly rare, but if you actually do literally run out of battery (not just it gets to the last few percent) then this technology doesn't work, whereas your bank cards do.

To clarify, power reserve works when your phone has run out of power to the point where it has shut itself off.

> it won't (logistically can't) work when you have literally run out.

While I believe you're correct for the iPhone, that it won't work, it's actually not as impossible as you suggest. The NFC-capable BlackBerrys that supported the very early tap-to-pay with a phone had the concept of a default card, which could be programmed onto the secure element and would work even if the phone was totally dead (even if the battery was removed). The NFC field was enough power to boot up the secure element, just like it's enough power to run the chip in your bank card when you tap it.

Later phones dropped this support, as it took a bunch of engineering effort and customers largely didn't care. But if customers ever start demanding it, so they can totally stop carrying a bank/credit card, it is possible.

I suspect that the tiny amount of power you can vampire to make NFC work (which is why your contactless bank cards work as you explained) isn't enough for even the basic features we now expect from a smart phone as payment device.

So you'd have to message this very carefully, on top of the engineering effort, and my guess is that in reality "Reserve power" is always enough. If your phone "died" (screen turned off for lack of power) at the party, you have several hours after that when it can still do enough NFC to get on the bus home.

A lot of my friends get anxious at like 10%. Sure, at that point you should probably stop playing Candy Crush, but you're a long way from not being able to tap in to your train home if you stop. Power Reserve seems like a sensible choice to make you stop using the last dregs for frivolities.

We might see this again, as the Pixel 8 Pro has a system like this for UWB so your phone can be located by the Find My Device network after its power is drained.

Power reserve is not “the last few percent”, it’s up to 5 hours after you have run out of battery.

https://support.apple.com/en-is/guide/iphone/iph0475909d4/io....

Buying paper tickets at the station using contactless can actually be faster and more convenient than navigating the apps.

Agreed, though in case of TfL there isn't actually any app, it's standard EMV and would work with contactless-enabled bank card or mobile wallet emulating a bank card (so built-in Apple/Google Pay).

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