Hacker News Reader

Comment by IshKebab | Hacker News Reader

Yeah, electric cars definitely don't make sense for car hire. The main advantage of electric car ownership is cheaper fuel costs long term if you charge at home overnight. That obviously isn't going to happen for a hire car, and even if it did the fuel cost of a hire car is insignificant compared to the cost of the hire itself.

On top of that, charging is still way less convenient than refueling an ICE car, and when you hire a car it's usually in a situation where you can't afford inconvenience.

I think electric cars are the future and hopefully I'll never buy an ICE car again, but car hire has got to be the last domain to transition surely?

View on HN

It depends on the situation.

It would work great with 2 things in place

1. The rental company has car chargers on the lot and keeps their cars charged at a reasonable level.

2. You are staying at a hotel/location with car chargers.

If those two things are in play, then electric rental cars make a TON of sense. Even shorter range ones as you are likely mostly puttering around the location where you are renting. In that case, you are likely to want to do the "drive around all day, charge while you sleep" that most EV owners do.

Unfortunately, while some hotels do have chargers, they tend to be the more expensive hotels and they tend to only have 1 or 2 slots for charging.

> On top of that, charging is still way less convenient than refueling an ICE car

Really depends. Charging is more convenient if you the place you park your car has a charger. Charging is less convenient if you are driving long distances or you need to recharge with no room for downtime.

I suspect fewer people putter around a location though. At one point if I was just doing a trip with some stops in core Silicon Valley I’d have automatically rented. Generally more likely to Uber it these days.

I think you’re underestimating the number of people who fly into an airport and their destination is 1-4 hours away by car afterwards.

Edit: and their hotel is a solid 45 minutes away from their work site.

> I think you’re underestimating the number of people who fly into an airport and their destination is 1-4 hours away by car afterwards.

I probably am, because I don't think that's super common. Airports are everywhere.

Even for my extreme rural hometown, there's a commercial airport 45 minutes away (Though, granted, we'd go to the airport 2 hours away because it's bigger and we'd have to fly there anyways to get to the 45 minute airport).

The full flights and large planes I've been on haven't been to Pocatello Idaho. Which is what gives me the impression that people aren't typically flying to rural destinations. On the other hand, a flight to Atlanta, Ronald Reagan, or Dallas are always filled to the brim.

Travellers may choose less optimal airports at their destination for a bunch of reasons. There may be limited connectivity, for example. If I'm flying to San Jose, I'm landing in SFO because to fly to SJC from my nearby airport at the departure side would require a flight connection.

Even when there are flights from departure city to arrival city directly, they might be avoided because of other reasons like cost or flight times.

Or you know, you might just be flying Ryanair who will fly you to Frankfurt Hahn airport (nearer Luxumburg than Frankfurt) or Paris Beauvais (nearer Normandy than Paris)

If your destination is 4 hours away from the airport, I'm sorry to say but you picked the wrong airport to fly into.

And why are you picking a 45 minute commute if work is picking up the tab for a hotel.

Your whole example smells of a strawman

> And why are you picking a 45 minute commute if work is picking up the tab for a hotel.

I've had work trips where the only decent hotel was an hour away from where I needed to be.

You’ve never worked in Yuma Arizona apparently.

Edit: my straw man smells like dry, arid, desert. The cacti are unbelievable.

Edit 2: the amount of willful ignorance in your response is absurdly enlightening, thank you.

Yuma Arizona has it's own airport. Yuma Arizona has four Hiltons (the only brand I checked)

So if you're flying into Yuma for work and you're flying into an airport 4 hours away and staying in a hotel 45 minutes away, you are really doing something wrong.

There are no direct flights to Yuma from where I live. I stayed in a Hilton. My drive from hotel to work was an hour.

Edit: it’s not worth dying on this hill, you’re just wrong.

You're saying there's no American Airlines near where you live? I find that hard to believe.

Regardless, even if you fly into phoenix, that's not a 4 hour drive away.

Regardless, even if a few underserved locations in the US are a 4 hour drive away from their nearest airport, it doesn't mean that EVs don't make sense as a rental car.

Tell that to hertz, and give up this dumbshit debate.

It is definitely possible to live three hours away from an airport that won't charge you an arm and a leg for flights to bigger airports that will just get cancelled. Many rural airports barely get air service anymore.

Even in that situation, having charging available at the hotel would make an EV at least as convenient if not more so than a gas rental car.

> the fuel cost of a hire car is insignificant compared to the cost of the hire itself.

That’s not true everywhere. I’m currently on holidays: the car rental for 6d was 130euros, insurance 40, and gas will be about 60 for 10-15h of driving. Gas doesn’t dominate the price but it’s far from insignificant, and it only gets worse as price increases

But you save a lot more time traveling with a gas car since you're not looking for charring stations along the route every 150-350km and waiting hours to charge.

Also, charging at public chargers isn't that cheap or frictionless. At home yeah, but at stations not so much. Not compared to filling up with gas and being on your way in less than 5 minutes.

> But you save a lot more time traveling with a gas car since you're not looking for charring stations along the route every 150-350km and waiting hours to charge.

While I'm sure it happens, that's never been my experience. You plug your trip into the car's navigation system and it'll plan out the charge stops for you. It's quiet frictionless. Tesla's is really good as it will even plan on sending you to less busy charging stations vs more busy ones (and reroute if that changes).

> Also, charging at public chargers isn't that cheap or frictionless.

Depends on the network. Tesla's isn't terribly expensive and is extremely frictionless. Electrify America is horseshit, both on cost and ease of use.

This is a solvable problem.

> Not compared to filling up with gas and being on your way in less than 5 minutes.

Behavior ends up changing here if you road trip with an EV. Rather than just getting fuel then going somewhere else to eat you'll usually charge while you eat, use the restroom, or go for a walk. If you really don't have anything else to do, you'll probably just catch a tv show on your phone.

That coveted 5 minutes ends up just not being a big deal because you are multitasking with the charging. (Which for me is typically 20->30 minutes).

>Tesla's is really good ...

>Tesla's isn't terribly expensive and is extremely frictionless...

I'm sure Tesla is great, but my ICE is excellent in both those categories and cost me 6000 Euros used in mint condition with only 4 years and 40k KM of usage. Which used Tesla can I get in that budget?

K. That wasn't a part of your original post. Did you want me to start debating the economics of buying EVs?

If I were to advise someone for the best EV to buy, I'd probably suggest holding off for 5 or 10 more years. Even if I were suggesting a new EV to buy, I'd suggest holding off for 1 maybe 2 years in north america because everything is switching over to NACS.

If we are talking about someone in the EU, I'd still probably suggest waiting a couple of years if you can, but if you can't you can probably grab a Nissan leaf for roughly that 6000 euros and that mileage. If you can wait a few more years, especially in the EU, then the used market options are going to explode. I'd probably look at some of the Chinese second hand EVs as they are already pretty cheap and will likely be super cheap used in a few years. And if you are in the EU, EVs that are roughly the same prices as an ICE are going to make a lot of financial sense because of the high petrol prices.

Would I suggest someone get a Tesla today? Eh, depends. I probably will not get one for my next vehicle, but I plan on running this one into the ground (currently at 130,000 miles and I plan to keep going until something gives). In the US, I'd suggest today you take a good look at the iconiq if you are buying new. But again, in the US, I'd strongly suggest waiting for a couple of years at this moment.

>Did you want me to start debating the economics of buying EVs?

Well, EV growth and adoption is all about economics (can you afford them in your business/lifestyle to replace your ICE or not?) Herz's decision to drop EVs is about economics (is it profitable for them or not?). So yeah, Economics are very important in this discussion so why not talk about it?

You pointing out Tesla, the most premium EV brand with the best chagrin network, as the competition to cheap ICEs is like telling peasants who can't afford bread that they should eat cake. EU voters aren't gonna be happy with this come 2035 if the EV market isn't full of cheap models with long range by then and we might see an exertion of the ICE life, especially since the post 2022 conditions has decimated the purchasing power and disposable income of the average European. We might have counted our chickens before they were hatched on this one.

>you can probably grab a Nissan leaf for roughly that 6000 euros and that mileage

Unfortunately, the Leaf's range is pitiful compared to even the most econobox ICE. And range is very important to EU buyers.

> You pointing out Tesla, the most premium EV brand with the best chagrin network

I pointed out 2 very specific aspects of tesla, the charge network and the ability to route plan with charging stops. 2 things any EV brand can pull off.

And, particularly in the case of the EU, 1 thing that affects all EV brands as there are public charging access laws which mean anyone can use the tesla charging network. It's not just for the uber wealthy. I did not say or suggest in my post that "lol, the poors should just buy teslas" as you suggest. Rather, I rebutted 2 specific points you made, that you have to search for charging stations which are far apart (not true in the EU, btw) and that the charging experience is always terrible.

You then went on a wild tangent about how much it costs to buy EVs, which was completely out of scope of the prior discussion and goalpost moving.

> as the competition to cheap ICEs is like telling peasants who can't afford bread that they should eat cake.

Like, sorry, I did not nor have I suggested that the peasants need to go out and buy EVs. Nor am I suggesting that owning one isn't something that today requires more money (as I outlined in my previous post). Owning an EV is not the right move for everyone yet every EV debate is framed as "If it's not good for everyone it's not good for anyone".

> EU voters aren't gonna be happy with this come 2035 if the EV market isn't full of cheap models with long range by then.

I agree. It's still a relatively young industry. My suspicion is that by 2035 things will be a lot more competitive as battery manufacturing has been growing exponentially and we are starting to see EV sales lag. Exponential growth in a supply with a lag in demand translates to lower prices. I can't predict exactly when (or if) this will happen. It's my best guess that it will.

> Unfortunately, the Leaf's range is pitiful compared to even the most econobox ICE. And range is very important.

Important to some, not to all. I wouldn't buy it as a primary car because range is important to me. As a secondary car, sure, it'd work great as a commuter.

But again, in case you want to reframe what I'm saying in a less charitable way, I'm not saying "EVs are for everyone and everyone should own them". Nor am I saying "everyone should buy a tesla". I'm not even saying "Used EVs are fine and there's no reason why someone shouldn't buy them."

We can both agree that ICE boxes aren't without their drawbacks right? We can both agree that there are pros and cons to EVs and ICE right? Or do you just want to say that there is never a good reason to buy an EV?

"it'll plan out the charge stops", "depends on the network", "you'll probably just catch a tv show on your phone".

All these combined are a far-cry from frictionless. And good luck if you venture out of the trodden path.

> And good luck if you venture out of the trodden path.

My family lives out of the trodden path. I visit them often in my EV. I've been all over rural Idaho and Oregon in my EV.

There are certainly some places too rural for an EV, but there's not many places more rural than rural Idaho and oregon.

> If you really don't have anything else to do, you'll probably just catch a tv show on your phone.

That's not changing behaviors, that's distracting yourself because refueling takes forever for an EV

How is distracting yourself while refueling not a change in behavior? What do you define as "change in behavior"?

That's just trying to keep from being bored during the long wait times using an EV introduces to the same routine road trip.

Changing behaviors would be like breaking the trip into shorter days, charging at night while sacrificing some days in the man destination

Assuming you have an EV as a daily driver. 30 minutes of waiting to recharge vs the hassle of renting a gasoline car? I think you are overestimating the problem here.

If you are renting a car with the intention of traveling long distances, you are free to pick the most suitable one though.

That seems cheap for gas. 15h driving ~6l/100km 90l of gas. That would be over $200 in gas for me.

The article says the cars are unreliable. I thought one of the selling points of electric cars was reliability over an ICE engine. Anyone knows what they are refering to?

My understanding is that they're better not in reliability, but in lower maintenance (oil replacement etc).

> I thought one of the selling points of electric cars was reliability over an ICE engine.

They are if you take car of them. Hertz notoriously did not have chargers in their lots and I've read plenty of stories of EV renters getting an EV with 20% of the battery.

If they are letting the cars sit and discharge to 0, yeah, that will look like them being "unreliable" and will ultimately wear the battery.

>They are if you take car of them.

That also applies to ICEs.

ICE are more reliable than ICE if you take care of them?

It might be time to check out the Hacker News guidelines for comments. A couple of relevant excerpts:

>Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine.

>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I rent EVs in Europe all the time, both for long and short trips, and it's never been a problem. (I don't own a car, so it's the only kind of driving I do these days.) You charge the rental overnight or find a fast charger somewhere if you can't find a spot. It's annoying when there's a line, but it's not an actual problem. Reliability has also not been a problem.

We use Zipcar for a second car at the moment and the closest one is an EV. I’ve only used it to go (at most) 10 miles round trip, but I’ve picked it up at 15% charge before and had anxiety the whole time… I agree that EV is a poor choice for rental.

Can you not see the charge amount before renting it?

The equivalent services in Copenhagen show the state of charge of the cars on the map, before paying anything. (There's also free minutes for leaving the car plugged in to a charger at the end, and perhaps because of that it's rare for them to be at a low charge.)

This has gotta be the ultimate EV gaslighting I've ever seen. You're clearly not doing EV right, GP!

The FAQ on Zipcar's website says "Our Electric Vehicles are charged overnight by our team, so they’re good to go whenever you are" — but this isn't the case for the GP, so the failing is with Zipcar.

For anyone otherwise accustomed to vehicles that even at 5% of capacity can be refilled within 5 minutes once a petrocharger's been found, the suggestion to check the charge level is risible.

You _can_, but if I have a reservation a week in advance, then it’s not much use. Someone could return the car with no batter at 3:15, for my 3:30 reservation.

Ok, so I see the Zipcar system is set up quite differently to the car sharing I've used elsewhere.

Here, there are many more cars, but it's not possible to reserve far in advance. You can reserve for free for enough time to walk to the car (20 minutes?) or pay to reserve for longer.

The charge state is shown prominently.

Fuel costs aren't insignificant, low MPG cars can have fuel be a solid % of the overall rental cost. I think for a moderately efficient (30ish MPG) rental I used for an afternoon a few weeks ago fuel was ~15% of total cost to me. Like $55 in rental fees, $10 in fuel. A rental a had last year for multiple days was closer to like 20%, but I got stuck with a gas guzzler.

There's situations where they make sense to rent and vice versa.

Business traveler who just needs to go between the hotel and the airport? Great; may not even need to charge.

If I'm flying into Vegas to do a roadtrip to the Mighty 5? Nope.

Rental companies already have lots of different categories, so it's fine to have a mixed fleet. Just requires some extra infrastructure and consumer education. Which, I know, is in short supply, but can be done.

Last domain? Maybe not, but it could be among one of the last.

I think heavy loads, cross country, and extremely rural are likely to be among the holdouts.

There's also the (para)military. I can't imagine an electric Toyota pickup performing in a warzone. Maybe that's why Toyota is not making the leap.

> extremely rural

Depends on how "extreme" extreme is.

Certainly affordable wouldn't work for rural because range is really needed. However, it's doable now with 300+ range EVs (assuming there's a city within 100/150 miles of your location).

One thing that would change this quickly is if V2H ends up taking off. Then you can ditch your backup generator and use your EV in the event of a power outage. For very rural places or off grid places that could be really valuable.

But totally agree about the other categories.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com