Hacker News Reader

Comment by goosejuice | Hacker News Reader

Music is absolutely not getting worse unless you're only considering top charting music which is such a small fraction of what's out there. Even then it's highly subjective and behind almost every one of those songs or albums is a handful of brilliant writers, producers and session musicians you probably never heard of.

I'd say it's never been better. Music is more accessible which means more folks get exposed to it earlier and in more variety and in turn we get more musicians.

It's only going to get better.

View on HN

Of course, it's extremely subjective, but how about naming a few artists who have appeared in the last few years that you think make better music and are more talented musicians than those who came before?

I could spend hours writing a response to this. I am mid 30 and my style of music changes with every season I am not within trends but most songs I enjoy most are not older than 3 or 4 years. Not all of them are well known.

Even something established like Punk reached new heights with more modern approaches (ex. Sleaford mods, Team Scheisse in German)

I think music is very subjective still but new music never stopped to impress me.

I just discovered Team Scheisse a week ago (they are from city!) and now I come across them on HN, what a coincidence (obviously this might be the Baader-Meinhof-Phenomenon at play but since they are a comparatively small band I would say the effect is rather small)!

Team Scheisse, new heights? What exactly brings punk to new heights with this band?

There's no hiding the "influence" of Sex Pistols, and I'd much rather listen to Sex Pistols, Ramones, and also Rancid than this band.

Do not see the appeal.

At the risk of just mouthing off my favorites, there are a lot of genres today are the best they've ever been. The post-punk revival out of the UK is great. The "chambery" Black Country, New Road and the "mathy" Black Midi are some of the best we've seen and there are other exceptional talents in that scene. Noisy-shoegazy-indie rock is also a great scene right now with artists like Jane Remover and Mitski releasing what will be important albums for ages to come.

Note, Mitski debuted in 2013 but most of the strongest records over the past few years, from hip-hop, pop to experimental rock to metal, seems to be by artists or individual who've been making music for around a decade-ish roughly. Maybe this disqualifies the whole lot and you're trying to highlight some weakness in the debuts of the past few years. If so, maybe you should wait a decade? If not, I can assert that some of the most talented artists of history are making music today. By any metric.

There's a tremendous amount of talent in contemporary music. Comparing musician against musician is silly.

Some of these have been around longer than others.

Jacob Collier, Vulfpeck, Cool Sounds, Sylvie, Bobbing, Abigail Lapell, Big Theif, Tank and the Bangas, Richard Houghten, Kurt Vile, Thundercat, Little Simz, Nora Brown, Barrie, Dominique Dumont, Lusine, Cory Wong, Billy Strings, DoomCannon, Cory Henry, Mark Lettieri, Nate Smith, Yussef Dayes, Yumi Zouma, limperatrice, Slow Pulp, Vetiver, Bibio, Altin Gun, King Gizzard, Julian Lage.

I could go on.. give me an artist you like or a genre and I could likely find you new music.

Yam Yam and Karina Rykman would fit in your list. Thanks for it.

Rykman is awesome. I'll check out Yam Yam, thanks!

Let me preface by saying I listen to a lot of genres, but that jazz & funk is not my "main expertise".

Of course there's no denying we have lots of creative and talented new musicians, but very seldom do I think they beat "the greats", or are even on par. Usually they feel more like knockoffs, and I find I'd rather go back and listen to the original instead.

I'm not familiar with these artists, but I had a listen to about 20 of them, and I will say that I can hear where a lot of them got their inspiration from, but they (not all of them) feel lightweight compared to artists from back in the day.

In these genres I'd much rather listen to the following artists than any of the ones you mentioned:

Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, Townes Van Zandt, Earth, Wind & Fire, The Isley Brothers, Johnny Cash, Coltrane, Gillespie, Miles Davis.

"Nate Smith" in particular sounds so much like your stereotypical modern artist. Everything from the production, melodies, his voice and vocal chain sounds like at least 20 other artists. Very uninspired in my humble opinion. This is what we can expect AI to produce.

Of course they were inspired by existing artists and by a greater set of them! This is central to my argument that music is only going to get better with greater exposure.

Those are all great artists you listed but to attempt to quantify that they are any more talented or creative than contemporaries is a silly exercise. It's art.

This is a small list of random artists that I've listened to over the past few years. Jacob Collier is a perfect example of exceptional generational talent who not only is technically mind blowing but also incredibly original. I bet every one of those artists you listed would say the same about him (if they haven't passed of course).

Nate Smith likewise would be welcomed as the drummer in any one of those bands. Did you listen to the right Nate Smith?

> Of course they were inspired by existing artists and by a greater set of them!

Inspiration is a given, and nothing wrong with that. But I often feel like instead of inspiring to new heights we get a watered down version.

I don't know, maybe you're just not hearing what I'm hearing. Watch Cory Henry on Snarky's Lingus. Jacob Collier do his recent crowd work with the NSO. Cory Wong talk about Vulfpeck and their MSG show and never rehearsing. Hiromi and Tank and the Bangas on NPR's tiny desks. I'd say Abigail Lapell adds tremendously to the folk of the era you are referencing.

Watered down is just not how I'd describe any of the musicians I listed

I come back to that keyboard solo on Lingus every couple of months and it never fails to make my hairs stand on edge. Absolutely legendary.

Larnell Lewis also delivered a world-class performance on that entire album.

You seem hyper focused on comparing all that you hear to what you already know you like. If you really want to appreciate new music, cut it out. You're introducing bias at the outset. If you approach a new artist as if their work is isolated, and give it some time to settle in, I think you'll be surprised.

Show me someone great who when you go to their inspiration you can't find they themselves very much creating watered down versions of their inspirations.

I think you may have found a different Nate Smith than the one goosejuice was referencing. They were likely referring to the drummer named Nate Smith (he's collaborated with at least one of the groups mentioned).

The guy has a lot of interesting work, but I think the thing that blew me away the most is the composition 'Warble'. If memory serves, that's the piece where he explored 64th note and dotted 32nd note displacements in order to mimic J Dilla's 'wonky' swing. I've tried capturing the Dilla swing; it's nearly impossible to do on the drums without sounding like you don't know how to play the instrument. Nate Smith, on the other hand, makes it sound fantastic.

The guy is a wizard.

You're right, stumbled upon the wrong Nate.

FWIW most of the top charting music of the 90s, 80s and so on were also "worse" and have mostly been forgotten. Few songs remain popular or regain popularity. A lot of chart hits are really just springboarding off "you had to be there" cultural moments or experiences or simply a general "vibe" that are fleeting and trivial enough not to stick around even in nostalgia.

As an extreme example, I'd argue the popularity of David Hasselhoff's I've been looking for freedom in Germany is almost entirely a result of "retconning" (if not fabricating) its supposed popularity at the time of its original release. It would have probably been forgotten entirely if it hadn't been rediscovered "ironically" in the context of ridiculous claims about its influence on the fall of the Berlin Wall. Heck, I remember owning a casette of the album as a kid only because "it's the guy from Knight Rider". For adult women his claim to fame was co-starring alongside Pamela Anderson in Baywatch as one of the few men regularly appearing bare-chested on daytime television - I'd say his musical talents played a very small role in his original popularity and it's telling nobody remembers any other songs than the one he performed on a TV show. He was never considered good, he was just a familiar face (and body) and made a catchy tune.

I recently encountered the term 'Tempoflavanoids' - the flavour of a particular moment in time. I love the concept, it speaks to the artist in me.

Though I thought David Hasslehoff's 'True Survivor' music video for the Kung Fury kickstarter was a banger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTidn2dBYbY

I agree with this take.

“Nothing is more responsible for the good old days than a bad memory.” comes to mind

> Music is absolutely not getting worse unless you're only considering top charting music which is such a small fraction of what's out there.

But there's a crucial difference between what's out there and what people are listening to. There's a lot of obscure stuff that not many people are listening to. Whereas the top charting music is what millions of people are listening to. It matters a lot what's getting marketed, what the majority of people are exposed to.

Unfortunately, very few repliers are addressing the first point that I made in my comment: "GenZ and Millennials show a much smaller preference for their own decade's music."

> Unfortunately, very few repliers are addressing the first point that I made in my comment: "GenZ and Millennials show a much smaller preference for their own decade's music."

Seems very hard to accurately measure, could be that people don't know what was released in their decade but the stuff from the 80s is easy to pinpoint.

> could be that people don't know what was released in their decade

It seems implausible that young people don't know that new music is new.

Why would the 80s be easy to pinpoint for people who weren't even alive in the 80s?

Define obscure.

Musicians are more discoverable than ever. Unlike in the past it doesn't matter nearly as much what's getting marketing/ gets air play at the top of the charts, because if you have a desire to find music that you like you just have to try and it's all there for free with an Internet connection.

If one can't find new music to ones taste it's not because of what's being produced.

> it's all there for free with an Internet connection

The "Internet" is just hand waving. The internet is massive. Almost everything is available on the internet, but that's a problem, not a solution. Sometimes it's like finding a needle in a haystack.

> If one can't find new music to ones taste it's not because of what's being produced.

So what is the explanation for "GenZ and Millennials show a much smaller preference for their own decade's music", which again, you haven't addressed.

You shared a single infographic without a source, but taking it as fact I would take a guess that it's easier to discover old music now and there's more music to listen to thus flattening the curve.

I'm sorry that it's difficult for you to find what you like. My tastes are very broad and I find new artists every week just listening to Spotify, Bandcamp, YouTube while working. My wife and I and our friends share music that we like with each other. We see live music and get exposed to openers we've never heard of.

That said music is a big part of our lives.

> You shared a single infographic without a source

The source was the submitted article under discussion in these comments!

> I'm sorry that it's difficult for you to find what you like.

I never said that. I'm not even discussing me, or you for that matter. I'm discussing the aggregate differences between the generations.

Indeed it is! Shameful of me.

Apologizes, when you referred to it being a needle in a haystack I thought you were referring to your own experiences.

If you consider the top charting music and the typical fart noises uploaded to soundcloud which have 3 listens, yes it is worse.

If you're only considering your 25 favorite new songs out of tens of millions then sure, it's better. But also there is recency/novelty bias which counteracts and may overcome any past/nostalgia bias

In conclusion, if all you're doing is listening to music alone in your apartment then it's never been better. Until you step out into the real world and realize that, best-case scenario, everyone hates your music and everything that it represents. More likely they will be completely bored and indifferent.

Music only matters to the producer and the listener. It's deeply personal.

I think you're missing the point.

This sounds like a parody of Western individualism

Why exactly do you care if music you enjoy listening to is also enjoyed by others? If you enjoy it and the musicians are making it what else is there?

Plenty of artists are just making art for themselves.

Plenty of people live in the woods. If we all lived in the woods everything would be fine! I'm sure our GDP wouldn't fall and no one would starve to death at all. Nope; Not a bit.

Why don't we all just wear VR headsets all day?

LOL enjoy your atomized Balkanized tower of Babel existence. If it has to be explained then you're consitutionally incapable of understanding it anyway.

I think you're thinking way to hard about this my friend. What part of seeing a local band at a bar or listening to family members make music leads you to bring up GDP and VR? Either you're completely misunderstanding this discussion or you're extremely out of touch.

LOL the classic "if I play dumb long enough he'll call me dumb and get banned"

You're disgusting.

Either that or you actually spit on the very idea of community and shared culture in which case you are yet more disgusting and are my enemy.

What gave you the idea that I'm not interested in community and shared culture? That's precisely what I'm promoting. My point was that it doesn't matter what's popular in the mainstream.

This is no place for personal insults, so I'll call it here as this clearly isn't a genuine exchange.

What gave me the idea?

>If you enjoy it and the musicians are making it what else is there?

LOL.

Also, a kiwi, a german, and an uzbek in a discord channel does not a community make. I'm talking about people playing banjo on their porch because that is what people do in their community and their region

The world's been hating my music tastes and telling me to turn stuff off since the 1980s. And then, ten years later they love it, and 10 years after that my ex-is bragging how she used to listen to it decades ago.

And definitely don't like things based on the real world, the real world is shit.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com