California could ban Clear, which lets travelers skip TSA lines | Hacker News Reader

California could ban Clear, which lets travelers skip TSA lines

cbsnews.com

55 pointslxm95 comments

I don't understand why Clear members are allowed to cut the TSA line. As far as I know, Clear doesn't pay the TSA anything. Everyone pays the same TSA screening fee on their airline ticket, so everyone should be handled on a first come, first served basis. Clear pays the airports to let them run their line, but why should the airport determine the order in which people are screened when it's the federal government doing the screening?

Isn't the interface between the TSA and the airport that the airport handles everything up until passengers get to the agents, and the TSA handles the screening?

Another example of airports choosing the order is that if you pay your airline for expedited screening (ex: JetBlue's "even more speed" at Logan, O'Hare, JFK, etc) then they let you skip the line.

I'm not sure. They don't have those at my home airport, but my vague understanding is that in some situations like this, the airline is paying the TSA to staff another lane for their preferred customers. To me, this seems more reasonable. Personally, I have been annoyed by a bunch of Clear people cutting in front of me in the regular Precheck line when I was running late for a flight.

In private aviation, you pay a fairly big fee for TSA in some circumstances depending on the size of the plane, and you pay a fee for customs to come to the private terminal.

If they were in their own line paid for by the airline, I wouldn't have been annoyed, but when it's the same screening checkpoint that we both paid the same tax for, I don't see why they should be allowed to go in front of me.

Why would clear have to pay the TSA? The TSA is supposed to provide a service, not rent seek. They have to screen fewer people which should lower costs. It's like Uber drivers paying the valet for drop offs since they don't have to go through valet

All Clear does is the ID check part. The actual security screening is all TSA. In the TSA lines, this is quick and never the bottleneck. The person doing the ID check actually throttles the line so that it doesn't back up in front of the X-ray belts. The Clear people are then allowed to cut this line that is ultimately waiting for the X-rays, which are the rate limiting step in the screening process.

The airport (who is being paid) is arranging for Clear people to cut a line for a Federal government service that all passengers have paid equally for.

Because the rich demand privileges, and it's another way to monetize misery.

I don't think SFO security is run by the TSA.

Did anyone read the article? They just want to move Clear somewhere else so the PR isn’t as bad.

> Newman said his bill, SB-1372, doesn't seek to prohibit Clear from operating its own dedicated security lines separate from other passengers.

> "The bill doesn't seek to punish Clear or put it out of business. It wants to create a better traffic flow so customers aren't intersecting with the general public and causing a moment of friction that is so frustrating to the average traveller," he said. "All it does is up the tension in the line."

The article also says "If passed, the bill would bar Clear, a private security clearance company founded in 2010, from airports in California. "

The bill text introduces no new, privately-operated security line; it only says that new contracts can't be made with companies that let clients skip the security lines. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

So it's not clear where Clear could go if they can't expedite clients through either regular or TSA Pre lines and there's not an obvious (to me?) way they could operate their own whole private security checkpoints.

Then again, LAX has shenanigans like PS - see https://reserveps.com/ - that have a whole private terminal with private security for people flying public, where they drive you right to your (Delta/United/American) flight, so maybe that's the direction Clear goes?

> … so [Clear] customers aren't intersecting with the general public…

this just feels so… gross.

I’d think Newsom might have bigger issues to deal with. Have a look at San Francisco as a whole right now. Come on, at least have priorities!

Newman, not Newsom

Clear exists because the TSA have made life bad for everyone.

Economy class passengers in Australia have a better experience than Clear passengers in the USA and don't have to pay extra for it.

Clear doesn't let you skip TSA screening, it let's you skip the ID check before the screening. Clear verifies your identity instead.

You're probably thinking of TSA precheck which is a more streamlined screening you pay extra for.

Clear operates a line cutting service pretending to be identity verification. DHS can already identity proof at domestic and international checkpoints using biometrics. CBP has processed almost 500M travelers at the border using biometrics.

https://www.tsa.gov/biometrics-technology

https://www.tsa.gov/sites/default/files/tsa_biometrics_roadm...

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/biometrics/airports

The entire TSA system seems useless, a waste of money

TSA is more than just the public security line at airports.

It's responsible for all aspects of airport security including all employees, both resident and transient, inside and outside the airport.

What's really baffling is how many different ID and security badge regimes DHS is responsible for, because they areythe exclusive issuer. Each airport issues their own security ID badge (SIDA). There's no interchangeability for identical clearance levels. It's remarkably inefficient. This isn't TSAs fault. Congress is the responsible party, yet rarely does it consolidate anything.

I get TSA Precheck for free since I have Global Entry (which does have a cost).

Man, unless its dramatically improved in the last 5 years Sydney and Melbourne were around the same level as hell as LAX/SFO are. Sydney was particularly bad the 3 times I had to move through it haha. My average LAX traversal is much smoother than Sydney ever was.

In Texas there was state government talk of making a law prohibiting airport mask mandates back in the day. There was also talk of changing the TSA screening process to be less obnoxious (some years ago it was very obnoxious). That was when we were all informed that airports are federal property and not subject to state regulations. For example weed maybe legal in CA but the airport is under federal law and its not legal (though we all do it anyhow). I wonder if something changed or this is just some lawmaker with nothing real to spend time on (because CA is doing GREAT and there aren't any other bigger problems left to solve).

Not to mention TSA Precheck - literally the same thing as Clear but without the personal escort at the end.

> TSA Precheck - literally the same thing as Clear but without the personal escort at the end.

Not the same thing - TSA precheck doesn't require you to give your biometric data to a private company.

You do have to give your fingerprints to a company for pre-check. Just went through that last year. I didn't ask which company gets them though.

I didn't pay for Clear so that I could bask in my social status at the airport. I paid for it so I don't have to go through the PornoScanner™, which is ridiculous, demeaning, and unnecessary. For the life of me I don't know why people put up with it, but I can't gripe at the airport because then the TSA people get very worked up. Hence, Clear.

$10 says they do indeed maintain those images someplace and $10 more says they're going to be used to train AI models "to enhance the security and safety of the US travel experience".

TSA pre-check uses a metal detector instead of the rapey-scans.

(edit - called it an x-ray machine, d'oh)

I think you mean metal detector

most of the backscatter X-ray machines are gone, its a millimeter wave scanner

With TSA precheck, you only have to go through a metal detector. It's a program run by a federal agency, not a private contractor that requires your retinal scans. It's also available at more US airports than Clear.

Just renewed my pre-check. Was surprised to see that the security screening was by a private company: I had a choice of three, each with their own (similar) pricing. Clear was one of them.

> For the life of me I don't know why people put up with it

So they'll be able to get on their flight.

You can still opt out of it right?

Yes, you can. Even without pre-check (though I still recommend pre too).

Yep. After sixty or so opt-out pat downs and a pandemic transition, I got Precheck so that my transgenderness doesn’t Surprise(tm) my government when I fly. Hooray for metal detectors.

I just opt out every time. It's an inconvenience, but it's an inconvenience that costs them money, and everyone should do it instead of paying for a workaround that provides them another revenue stream.

Security theater for corporate profits is total bullcrap.

> but it's an inconvenience that costs them money

Does it? It’s not like they have to hire someone extra, they just call up someone from the crew that walks over as slowly as they possibly can, and projects as much attitude as they possibly can. That agent’s highlight of the day would be making opt-outers wait.

> Does it? It’s not like they have to hire someone extra, they just call up someone from the crew

This is a bit of a bizarre argument. Do you think the crew is made up of volunteers? Do you think the number of crew members somehow isn't determined in part by the throughput of tasks crew members are needed to perform? I'm not even sure what you think is going on here.

> that walks over as slowly as they possibly can, and projects as much attitude as they possibly can. That agent’s highlight of the day would be making opt-outers wait.

That's never been my experience in like 20ish flights since TSA started irradiating people. I know the agent isn't the problem, and I treat them as the human being doing their job that they are, and the entire thing goes by like the routine waste of time that it is.

Would you mind sharing the exact steps you take and what happens next when you do this?

You just tell the TSA agent that you want to opt out of the body scanner. They then find an agent of your gender to do a pat-down screening and a swab to test for trace chemicals. It takes about 3 minutes assuming they have an agent available.

I used to opt out (before I got TSA pre). When you're standing at the rapey scan and they tell you to go through, just say "opt out". Then they'll exhale loudly, roll their eyes, and yell "opt out". Then you stand around for a couple minutes while they find somebody to give you an old handy. They'll read you their spiel and ask if you want a private room (I assume that involves a happy ending). Then they ask if you have any sensitive areas, do a half-assed job of patting down your upper body, run their hands up and down your legs, and wipe their gloves to test for bombs or farts or whatever.

I vaguely remember the yelling "opt out" in the early days of the porn scanners, but I don't think they do this at most airports any more.

I think you might be taking the agents' reactions more personally than they are intended: I'm sure that the TSA agents aren't necessarily happy because you're adding a task to their plate, and in busy airports they already have a lot going on, so it's understandably visible that they're stressed. But every one I've interacted with has kept it more professional than an eye roll.

Remember, the agents themselves are just not-all-that-well-paid workers. They aren't the cause of the problem.

I tell the TSA agent who runs the porn machine that I want to opt out. Sometimes there's a TSA agent directing traffic before that, so I'll tell them instead.

They usually make sure that they know which of my shoes and carry-ons is going through that separate scanner so I can pick it up after. I end up waiting at most a minute for a male (because I am male) TSA agent to come over and do the pat down. Before they do the patdown, they explain what they're going to do; I believe this explanation is standardized and memorized, though I haven't gone through word for word and checked that. Afterward they'll either swab my some area of my clothes, or (more often) swab the nitrile gloves they patted me down with, and put it in what I assume is a spectrometer to check for chemicals. Twice, the person doing the pat down was a trainee, so the pat down was observed by a trainer and the trainer asked me a few questions, like if I felt the trainee had used too much pressure during the patdown. At that point I'm free to pick up my bins of shoes and other carry-ons, and I'm free to go. Entire process takes 2-5 minutes, most often in the lower end of that range.

During the patdown, some agents will ask questions like where I'm flying to and why. This is pretty hit or miss and I don't get the impression that they're part of the security (though it could be). The impression I get is that it's just making small talk on the most obvious available topic.

I opt out every time too. I like getting the individualized attention and I consider it a free massage.

It's also a great opportunity to give the TSA agent hands on practice. Need to get them skilled up, frisking on behalf of "on the go" VIPs. They usually laugh at that joke while fondling me.

I understand that it bothers some people, but it doesn’t bother me at all. I don’t find it degrading or demeaning.

It’s not even about a difference in my tolerance for uncomfortable things. It’s not even on my radar of things that grind my gears. I’m more bothered by taking off my shoes

I think it’s a much more invasive search than is required to serve the legitimate security purpose (and is therefore unreasonable).

I opt-out as a matter of protecting my Fourth Amendment rights, not because I care about someone seeing my body.

> it doesn’t bother me at all. I don’t find it degrading or demeaning.

What about second hand? I like travel, but one downside, is the memories of pain. The woman with the thousand-yard stare as her genitals are groped. The stressed-out pregnant woman being "persuaded" with same to use the ramshackle backscatter X-ray, her young child freaked beside her. Turn your back and walk away. There are many places in the world, where when random people are being hurt, you just do not get involved. But it's a hit.

"So when you are requested to pay up or be molested" indeed.

> For the life of me I don't know why people put up with it

Let’s see. My options are getting on my flight… or not getting on my flight.

Maybe it’s selfish but I’m more interested in getting on a plane than making a stand for freedom in the airport security line.

Isn't Clear only for the pre-check and not for the scanning? TSA Pre let's you get the metal detector only but I thought Clear goes to the regular security screening unless you also have TSA Pre.

> I paid for it so I don't have to go through the PornoScanner™

Are you sure you are a Clear member? You seem to be missing some basic information about Clear membership. Clear members go through the same scanners as the commoners.

Only the people who did not get scammed into paying for Clear and instead paid for TSA Pre, get to skip the slow scan lines.

> the PornoScanner™

What part of the airport experience are you talking about here?

Backscatter X-Ray or similar, presumably.

Haven’t those been phased out at most major airports? I fly with some frequency and all the TSA agent sees is an illustration of my body shape. Apparently this is using milimetre waves

The machine creates a detailed pornographic-detail-grade image [1]. You have no way to know if it is saved. What is displayed on the external screen is not relevant.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Image-generated-by-L3-mi...

You don't have to go through the pornoscanner regardless; I always request the complimentary massage instead.

It is all ridiculous, demeaning, and unnecessary either way, but somehow it feels a little better when the process is ridiculous and demeaning for the TSA staff, too.

If everyone opted out, the security line would grind to a halt, and politically-connected people would therefore lose money. Would that force the powers-that-be to improve this mess? I think we should try to find out.

Classic essay by Tom Junod about the moral virtue of standing in line:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a15636/whitewater...

I have friends that have a lot of money, and they pay for "VIP service."

This usually entails separate lounges, and boarding the plane long before other passengers do.

They can afford it, and I suspect it costs quite a bit. They also travel a lot for business, and it really sounds like their trips are grueling, even though they have top-shelf lodgings and whatnot.

In any case, one aspect of my forced retirement, has been no more traveling. I used to travel overseas, all the time, and haven't, for quite a few years.

I thought that I'd miss the experience, but find that I don't miss it at all. I traveled all my life (since I was a child). It's nice to set down some roots.

I travel internationally frequently, and clear isn’t worth much because it only exists in airports within the US.

I imagine their target market is commuters.

> [..] "VIP service" [...] it costs quite a bit.

Something like P/S[0] in LAX I presume. It's approximately the cost of an international business class seat. So yes it's expensive but not unaffordably so for working professionals. I've used it for international inbound a few times: being able to clear customs and immigration in ~5 minutes (!!) is almost worth the premium.

When I fly inbound I avoid LAX whenever possible. However, I've been told that Global Entry is now fairly streamlined, so perhaps I'll give that a try next time.

[0] https://reserveps.com/

Clear is an absolute gimmick and only benefits the wealthy. I had a clear membership for years, initially it was a great way to skip the line and more efficiently go through security.

It had security lapses, which caused Clear to get in trouble. This lead to the clear line being LONGER.

Now, at most airports, the TSA processes your REALID quicker than CLEAR, clear is obsolete and a waste.

They should ban the TSA, too. Completely useless. Flying used to be so much more pleasant.

Ban flying too. And road trips. Ice cream. Music

Everything used to be better.

And while I am here... Get off my lawn.

Didn't think I'd get an "old man yells at cloud" reaction from this comment

Am I out of touch? No, it is the children who are wrong. Bring back flying how it was in the 80s/90s. TSA's security theater is a joke.

All because "equity" or something.

"It's a basic equity issue when you see people subscribed to a concierge service being escorted in front of people who have waited a long time to get to the front of TSA line," Newman told CBS MoneyWatch.

"I do understand the frustration stated in Senator Newman’s bill," Nguyen, who sits on the transportation committee, told Politico. "It becomes a haves vs. have-nots where those who can afford it jump in front of the rest of us. They even cut in front of TSA Pre-boarding pass travelers who have been screened by the TSA."

What this legislation boils down to is that the government and government unions are trying to eliminate a private company that is doing the job more efficiently than the government and making a profit off of doing it. The PreCheck system allows travelers who pay $70 to $80 every five years to enjoy an expedited screening process by submitting fingerprints and a valid ID. Nobody is forcing anyone to use the TSA PreCheck or Clear's system; customers voluntarily pay the fees for the benefits of not waiting in a long line. It is the same thing as most amusement parks charging a hefty fee for the perks of bypassing long lines at their parks.

> private company that is doing the job more efficiently than the government

What?? The id verification that Clear offers is not substantially faster than the TSA examining your id. The only value Clear offers is jumping the line.

I don't have strong opinions about Clear, but I would abolish TSA PreCheck immediately. Or at least make government employees and everyone holding a public office ineligible to it.

American airports are universally terrible, because frequent flyers are not subjected to the default process. If the people who fly often and pay a lot of money for it would have to face TSA at its worst, there would be much more pressure to reform it.

Long security/immigration lines should be a rare newsworthy event. Not something that routinely happens at busy times.

There isn't any good reason why regular people who fly even once every couple of years shouldn't get PreCheck. It's $85/5-years (a mere 17/yr) and is an almost semi-civilized travel experience.

Osama bin Laden is laughing from his grave.

I’ve always hated the Clear logo. To me, it’s a visual representation of the old experiment where you use a drop of soap to clear a scattering of pepper on the surface of water. The implication is that you, the Clear customer, can rid yourself of the dirty rabble who didn’t pony up for the Clear membership.

Prediction: Clear will now be free for state legislators, and the bill will be killed in committee.

it really is sad that i can actually believe this could be a realistic outcome.

Did anyone else think Clear was some Scientology front the first time you saw it?

May be ban TSA which requires you to open jacket, shoes, put laptops and phones in separate bins, open belts even if pant is loose.

TSA has made everything so inconvenient.

How is this different than Pre-check or global entry?

Clear gets you to the TSA agent faster but not to a precheck line. It just helps you skip the initial line.

If you have PreCheck, they do take you to the PreCheck line. In some larger airports, there are separate Clear check-in locations for PreCheck and regular passengers with Clear, and at some (Atlanta, for instance), Clear PreCheck has it's own, dedicated security line.

Clear was made pointless almost immediately after launch by the introduction of TSA Pre, and ever since then has been desperately trying to find a reason to exist. They can’t actually replace the official security screening, because TSA runs that. Their weak value-add is to let you jump to the front of the line, which obviously has nothing to do with security. They might as well simplify matters by just offering to let people enrolled in TSA Pre pay another $150/year for a pass to jump the line, and thus avoid all the maintenance of those iris scanners or whatever they are.

I agree, except I don't think it is a "weak value-add". It only takes one missed flight for it to be worthwhile for me.

I meant there's no value added there by Clear despite their fancy machines and the trappings of a security service. They could be replaced by a simple fee charged by the airlines/airport to access a "premium line" for Precheck.

Sometimes the Precheck line is longer than the standard one. Maybe there's room for both. Maybe people could do live bidding for line position. Maybe they could use the money to make flying not suck. Maybe I'll just stay home.

A Precheck line has to be substantially longer than the regular line to be slower. Not only is there not as much that each passenger has to do, but overwhelmingly they are frequent fliers who know the routine for screening.

I'm already measuring long-ness in terms of time. I saw that on the last trip I took. Precheck was ~2 minutes. Standard was ~30 seconds. It wasn't a problem. But it was a curious scenario.

Global Entry is only when you come into the country and have to go through immigration. It does nothing for when you have to board a plane.

Sort of. Global Entry also includes PreCheck -- your global entry ID number is also your PreCheck ID. PreCheck does help (quite a bit) with the TSA security lines/etc., so in a way, GE does help you more than just at border crossings.

Clear also works at other venues like concerts or sporting events

Like Clear/TSA is the same business model as DMV/AAA

Are they going to ban toll roads next?

The #1 reason I don't use Clear is because I don't want to be That Guy cutting in line in front of everyone else. If they had their own lines I'd consider it.

Another +1 for California...

I think it's kind of interesting to watch the dynamics between Clear, PreCheck, and regular security. I flew out from SFO last month, and the PreCheck line was actually longer than normal security. Clear was a ghost-town.

I've always opposed PreCheck, because I think it's antithetical to the ideals our country claims to hold. It's essentially a government-sponsored "pay money for better treatment" program, combined with a little bit of "pay money to avoid the poors" and a dash of big-brother for flavor. Clear is no better.

People say that in New York, the subways are a great equalizer because everybody rides them - whether rich or poor. Airports should work the same way, in my opinion.

California just keeps giving people reasons to leave. Incredibly dumb and overreach once again but a government full of woke idiots.

I think most of us are upset with the enshitification that Clear brings. They should make TSA and TSAPre less frustrating and not have some crappy private company that gathers tons of biometric data and makes life miserable for regular flyers.

I agree with that part

> "It's a basic equity issue when you see people subscribed to a concierge service being escorted in front of people who have waited a long time to get to the front of TSA line," Newman told CBS MoneyWatch. "Everyone is beaten down by the travel experience, and if Clear escorts a customer in front of you and tells TSA, 'Sorry, I have someone better,' it's really frustrating."

It's insane to me that "equity" will be the downfall of Clear...

No, not how it's a clear (hehe) shakedown - make airport security so insufferable that people will pay to skip the line - no, we shouldn't fix that, we all need to suffer together! Equality of sufferability!

It's like we're in a Family Guy episode or something...

[dupe]

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