Comment by _the_inflator | Hacker News Reader

Comment by _the_inflator | Hacker News Reader

I am not convinced. Reading the whole article it seems that Bayer is moving to a system better known as QBR, mixed with OKRs and most likely some sort of agile model.

There is no no-hierarchies. Working in a 3 month cadence on an organizational level puts a lot of pressure on all people. Usually QBRs work top down and there is more monitoring along the process.

What sounds great is more or less success theatre as well as inflexibility. No one wants to lack behind in a QBR report. Risking 4 times a year being red flagged in a report sparks fear.

Also approval processes and idea sharing are the first victims of such reorganizations. No one risks a 2 week sprint for some improvement sprint or working on technical debt in tech for example.

I’ve seen this within a company with 100k employees worldwide.

People will regret QBRs.

Usually companies want to get rid of the costs of middle managers, which are usually elder than normal staffers. Also companies want to include younger folks, because they are on average cheaper per resource from a controlling perspective.

Young guns without leadership with delivery pressure by an even older senior management layer means having a large gap and divide between them.

Senior management adds so called assistants to their staff, the hidden layer.

I watched a lot of mobbing at the lower level as a result. Fear of tumbling over mistakes aka receiving a bad performance review is rampant when you need to report all the time results.

Mixing teams every QBR sounds fun, but isn’t. It means even more being in constant competition. Who is the most flexible employee and most successful under different circumstances?

Large organizations are hard to manage. People will very soon miss their middle managers to cover things up in a human way.

QBRs don’t help if there is a clear product strategy missing.

There is no perfect system, but QBRs are some of the most toxic form of working and collaboration that I have witnessed so far.

I'm been really frustrated by OKRs specifically. The whole system does a great job of appearing to empower a bottom up approach while actually being implemented as a top down, authoritarian system.

It sounds great to be metric and goal driven, allowing employees to decide for themselves how to best reach those business goals. I've never seem it implemented this way though. Instead, I've seen leaders define goals and solutions together, paired with a list of metrics used to define success so specifically that annual reviews and layoffs become an almost mathematical, robotic process.

At my last company, managers success was defined by their reports success, so if we didn't achieve our KPIs by the end of the quarter, my manager would say "You worked really hard this quarter, and I want to make sure you get your full bonus!" then he would just lower the KPI metrics until we achieve ~80% of them (because our CEO believed if you are achieving more than 80% of your goals, then your goals aren't ambitious enough)

I always found it really interesting at Google that OKRs generally seemed to make sense at the CEO & PA level, but massively broke down somewhere between VP->Dir->Team level, to the extent that for the majority of teams it was nearly impossible to identify clear OKRs for themselves that trickled down (or flowed up) to the OKRs that should have been inheritable by their management chain. Some orgs manage to get to the Director level, but in others the break happened at the VP level, which just meant that entire large groups of Type A, highly productive people were mostly rudderless -- not to mention being at risk of poor performance reviews if their management chain weren't able to provide adequate air cover.

I always wanted OKRs to be flipped to a bottom up approach. Let every employee or manager define what's most important to them, or their team, and how they'll measure success. As it goes up the chain, managers and ultimately the CEO are responsible for taking all those goals rolling up to them and craft it into a plan or business direction.

Effectively crowd sourcing your business from all of your employees. Of course you have to actually trust and respect a majority of your employees which really makes it a non-starter for most high level leadership.

So, exaggerating, the CEO would be responsible to craft a business direction from this set:

    - publish more as open source,
    - migrate to novel:
      - libraries
      - frameworks
      - architectures
      - paradigms
    - small refactoring that hugely improves elegance and readability,
    - big refactoring that barely improves anything,
    - add an impressively-sounding feature, sponsored by letters C, R, D and T
    - ...in Rust

I'm not saying it'd be easy, or that it'd scale to a massive company, but then I don't think we should have such massive companies which is another discussion.

The examples you give are more like every employee getting to decide what they feel like working on. The idea would be for employees, as the ones almost always closest to customers, to define what they see as mattering most.

You have to remember that OKRs aren't just tasks. Ideas from the bottom up would include what they see as most important along with why its important and how success will be measured.

All of the examples you gave could be great examples if they are complete. Publish more open source to break into a new market or improve code maintainability. Migrate to a new library to fix long standing performance issues or unlock a new feature set. Redactor for readability to reduce code review time or speed up new feature development.

Other, more customer focused, examples could be to improve docs to reduce customer churn or improve discoverability for new users. Maybe you help in a support channel on Slack or Discord and find a ton of users asking for some specific integration, its very easy for you to see that pattern but hard for someone at the top to see it or assign it value.

Pushing down orders from the top is easier, and better at stoking ego. Hiring and developing your team well so you can honestly take their recommendations and craft the next 6 months of marketing or define a new product direction that ties together what your team has seen is much, much harder but an amazing strategy if done right IMO.

My examples were more like every employee getting to decide (cynically, individually) what's best for them.

Your examples are where every employee figures out (altruistically, collectively) what is best for the CEO.

Breaking the symmetry, CEO in both cases decides what's best for the CEO (officially "best for everyone", but in fact you are only counted as "everyone" if you are an employee who is contributing to what's best for the CEO).

I admit that your proposition could very well work fine. Many people do love to get into the shoes of higher-ups.

That also just doesn’t make sense to do because most employees don’t understand the business and are terrible at defining OKRs.

They probably aren't good employees then, honestly. My scenario here is entirely dependent on leaders trusting their reports, if that isn't possible then at best they can try to force objectives down from the top.

I'd argue that still won't work, and in my experience it hasn't. Id your employees don't understand the business or aren't good at defining goals, you've failed them as a leader. Maybe they shouldn't have been hired, though I'd argue they have been poorly managed and put into roles that don't fit their skills and interests.

The model I was talking about here would be flipping the script entirely though. There wouldn't he a chance for someone to misunderstand the business. Leaders' entire task is taking what their reports' priorities are and unifying a vision and business plan from that (recursively until you reach independent contributors). Employees can never misunderstand, leadership can only misunderstand their employees.

> They probably aren't good employees then, honestly.

This is incredibly naive. Even in single product companies you can have excellent employees (e.g. a CNC machinist) who don’t know anything about the pricing, regulatory, and legal aspects of the company.

We're explicitly given top-down OKRs, which we're required to align our own "bottom-up" OKRs to, and then we're not empowered to meet our own OKRs, because product management alone steers the ship.

That's how I've often seen it implemented as well. There's absolutely no point to OKRs when used that way, I assume its a sign that someone pushed through a big change in the name of efficiency and got a nice promotion out of it without anyone checking to see if it actually helped.

I've of the best essays I've read explaining this kind of phenomenon is The Tyranny of Structurelessness (https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm).

It's a critique from a feminist in the 70s account how the feminist movement's attempt to have no hierarchy created implicit hierarchies that were less accountable too the group than explicit hierarchies

Demands for non-hierarchical political forms have always scared me, and so often, how they are demanded by people whose main skill is to rabble-rouse. Of course, this is no coincidence.

In an interview process they tried to sell this to me. So I asked the question of what would happen in case of disagrement. It would be solved magically by consensus... I told them no. No structure or too much structure leads to the same result: chaos. A different one, but well, not good in either case.

Yup. Explicit hierarchies result in explicit accountability. Implicit ones, well, ‘I’m not their boss, I don’t know why they did that!’

Asking for everyone here. What’s a QBR?

Quarter Based Reporting?

Quarterly business review in my experience

This sounds so true. Before you had 1 or 2 bosses to report to, now you have 10, rotating in and out, whenever they please. If you've experienced the joy of a semi-yearly peer review system in a MegaCorp (e.g., Meta), imagine this happening all the time, with less structure, and even less shielding.

noob question: what does qbr stand for in this context?

i thought maybe quarterly business review, but not sure after reading several descriptions around...

You're correct, QBR = quarterly business review in this context

Steam is a flat org and they only do things they want. Still no Half-Life 3 though.

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