My battle with Tesla: I want to clear my name before I die | Hacker News Reader

My battle with Tesla: I want to clear my name before I die

bbc.co.uk

184 pointsuser20180120109 comments

Reportedly, Tesla is having a big issue with their accelerator pedal right now.

The thin metal cover of that pedal is not always thoroughly secured and slides off easily, wedging itself into the carpet behind the pedal. This causes the accelerator to be stuck (at high velocity!).

https://insideevs.com/news/716031/tesla-cybertruck-stuck-acc...

As a Tesla customer, you are part of the QA team. That's what you get when they make the employees of that company to afraid to speak up and report serious issues.

"As a Tesla customer, you are part of the QA team."

More like a stunt team.

Cheaper than a real QA team and Tesla can ignore you if you come up with something inconvenient.

In a petrol engine car you could react by shifting out of gear and flooring the brake pedal (and the clutch pedal if you have one). But what do you do in an electric car? Teslas do have a neutral gear, but it's more and more hidden with every new car generation (according to https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/598/how-to-put-..., for some newer models it's only available via the touchscreen). So you have to hope that the brake pedal will override the gas pedal?

AFAIK pressing the brake pedal should cut the throttle (even most ICE cars do that) and also the brakes should be able to overpower the motors (unless you're doing 200 km/h down a mountain and you melt them before you can stop).

If this happens, couldn't you just steer the cybertruck into a car wash, I've heard that disables them.

Yep, the brake pedal will cut the throttle, but the throttle will fully re-engage when you lift the brake pedal again, so controlled manoeuvring of the car becomes extremely difficult.

imo I would hit the brakes and coast to the side the road as soon as possible, then turn off the car.

The driver in the video I saw demonstrating the Tesla issue mentioned he was able to brake and stop the vehicle successfully.

The problem is, you don't know when a failure is coming (or more realistically, for most people, they aren't even aware that such a failure mode is possible). It's tough to guess how people respond when panicking, even if their rational brains could devise a solution given a little time to think about it.

Sounds like a need for a "chaos testing mode" where the driver intentionally drives to an empty parking lot and presses the "DO NOT PRESS THIS BUTTON" and enters a password after accepting a bunch of waivers, disclaimers. Then the car does random things and the driver has to react to each thing after having taken a course on "Here are all the known knowns and known unknowns, minus the unknown unknowns". If this does not exist, then I want it to and videos must be uploaded somewhere we can all watch. Please make this happen.

Good idea, Elon!

In the original video the guy said he pressed the brake pedal and it overrode whatever the gas pedal was doing.

They have a brake pedal too, like every car. The brake pedal should override the acceleration like in any ICE car.

So, technically I don't see any problem.

> So, technically I don't see any problem

If the accelerator getting stuck on a car isn't "technically" a problem then what is? It's a ~3000kg/7000lbs vehicle with 14000Nm/10000lbft of torque and 850HP motor.

Whatever your driving style, the expectation is that the car won't accelerate uncontrolled. You may be able to press the brake but then again those extra few fractions of second could make the difference between life and death for someone.

"Technically not a problem" is the peak of apologism in such a dangerous situation.

The thing is, as I understand it is not like with the Toyota case that the acceleration is unexpected. In the Toyota case it was unexpected because of a software glitch. Actually, it was never really proven that it was an actual software glitch. Michael Barr just has proven that the complete software was a mess without really looking into that detail.

Here with the Tesla it is, that when you currently pressing the pedal the top can come off. Then when you don't want to press the pedal anymore, it gets stuck. So that is the moment when your reflex normally is to press the other pedal.

> when you currently pressing the pedal the top can come off. Then when you don't want to press the pedal anymore, it gets stuck

That is still very dangerous. Tesla stopped deliveries because it's a big deal.

In some cases you could have literally an arm's length to stop before you kill someone (like just as you back out of a driveway) and the car accelerating even half a second more than you wanted is too much.

I cannot stress enough, this car has high power and extreme torque. It goes from 0-60mph in 2.6s. Even under normal acceleration it will eat quite a bit of extra distance while you react to press the brake. One pedal driving would have braked the moment you took your foot off the accelerator. Normal driving would have at least stopped accelerating. The reason a lot of Tesla drivers were punching through walls and blaming it on the car was because of the stronger than expected acceleration. If that can catch people by surprise, imagine unintended strong acceleration.

You are needlessly finding excuses for something very dangerous.

Being forced to brake while driving can also be very dangerous. How is this not a problem? And I think you're misusing the word "technically" here.

Braking is fundamental to driving, how is it dangerous? If the gas pedal was stuck to the floor and I was on the highway my first instinct would be to stomp on it a few times to get try and get it dislodged. If that failed, I’d put it in neutral, brake, and pull over somewhere out of the way.

You're on the highway going 80 with traffic and all of a sudden you have to stop. In the middle of the highway! How is that not dangerous?

Discussion was gas vs EV braking, op was guessing it's impossible to kill an EV with stuck accelerator...

Of course stuck accelerator is dangerous in any situation in any car...

braking will succeed if you're on a straight aways most of the time. But on slick roads, curves, etc it can be quite dangerous.

Model S & Model X 2021+

Since there is no gear stalk on the 2021+ Model S and Model S, you’ll need to tap the car icon to go to Controls, then tap and hold the Neutral button. This will engage your car into Neutral.

> So, technically I don't see any problem.

Well the problem _is_ there, so please do see it.

The fact that there is a mitigating control does not eliminate the problem, it merely dissipates temporarily (since this is a manual control, once the manual intervention ceases, the problem will re-emerge).

The default state is never "pedal to the metal". If something should fail - it should "fail-stop", and not "fail-to-full-throttle".

FWIW many car manufacturers have had almost this exact same problem. Toyota had to recall hundreds of thousands[1] of vehicles for this issue. My '19 rav4 didn't come with floor mats because the dealership didn't want to take the risk.

So the question is , how many Toyotas failed before they issued the recall, was in voluntary or forced?

1 https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/toyota-anno...

Video of the CyberTruck pedal issue -

https://www.tiktok.com/@el.chepito1985/video/735775817650408...

This is horrifying. Some people just don’t have the proprioception to react correctly in a situation like this. I don’t know if I would myself.

> As a Tesla customer, you are part of the QA team.

Tesla sells more cars now than BMW or MB.

They have least hardware recalls in industry.

This issue is on a brand new model thats sold less than 10k vehicles.

Yeah, remember that time they had 120,000 defective suspensions that routinely collapsed causing the wheels to fall off and also result in total loss of control at highway speeds [1]. But at least they covered it up for multiple years so they did not have to issue a recall.

Just cover up safety defects and avoid issuing recalls until NHTSA is about to file a case to force you to and you too can minimize the impact of safety defects on your bottom line.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-mu...

Fail early, fail often, but always fail forward. I didn't think it was supposed to be taken literally...

Why is this relevant to the posted story?

carpets on the older cars is still a problem. They had round adhesive velcro patches that stuck to round smooth areas on the underside of the carpets. These would velcro to pucks that screwed into the floor carpet

there all kinds of problems - the picks would come loose, and the adhesive holding the velcro patch to the carpet would come loose in a hot car.

and the carpets would bunch up, usually under the accelerator pedal.

A lot of interior stuff was redesigned better for the newer cars, but then they killed most controls and put them on the touchscreen, ugh.

(No shifter stalk anymore, car guesses direction you want to go, no turn signal stalk, no headlight/wiper stalk, etc)

>No shifter stalk anymore, car guesses direction you want to go, no turn signal stalk, no headlight/wiper stalk, etc

Sounds like they talked to the designers at Apple.

Pretty soon you’ll have to flip your Tesla over to charge it

Both companies are valued in trillions.

Mission failed successfully.

one-button mouse.

Our 2013 carpet does it, very annoying. Happens under the accelerator pedal.

> Tesla has never provided any details about the alleged incident, either to her or in public, she says.

Well, unfortunately it looks like a classical case of "someone with some power in the company didn’t like you".

I made this comment the other day. Sounds like it still applies.

Tesla are car Boeing.

That’s not fair to Boeing. They have models (787) with zero hull losses.

But they do have seat, icing, instrument failure issues which the FAA are looking into now.

This is about safety, not body count. Safety comes up front.

Yeah but I'd say that's more luck than ability at this point though.

Yep. Recall how many 787 assemblers and managers admit even they wouldn't fly on them.

Yeah and Boeing also has FSD that's been there for decades.

You literally know nothing about either companies

This does not sound as bad as you want it to.

Last time I checked, Boeing was responsible roughly for the half of all flights worldwide and fligths are 3 orders of magnitude safer than car trips.

That's not the metric I am comparing.

I am comparing safety culture. A bad safety culture has the propensity to do serious harm to people and should be called out.

When a business, read Boeing/Tesla/Toyota, cover up safety claims they can no longer be trusted with any decision where your safety is considered. That applies to being the victim of a safety outcome as well i.e. you do not own the product but it hurts you in some way.

FAA grounded entire Boeing types. There is not that oversight in the commercial car industry.

The whole Toyota episode with the phantom acceleration does not equate with a bad company culture. The problem was too complex and complicated for the company to grok, and they had unbelievably bad PR.

I mean, most of the Toyota incidents are of people in a new car, who messed up pedals. It happens, do not discard it!

The real question is how does their safety stack up against other companies in the field today? Sure you’re probably not going to die on a Boeing but would you rather fly Boeing or Airbus?

It's a good question but it's as much airline as the aircraft.

Personally I don't fly Boeing because I don't want them getting business. But I will pick an airline that doesn't have a crap safety and maintenance record on top of that.

Move fast and break things... not the brightest idea with heavily regulated markets when we talk about 1st world countries human lives.

But I'll probably die of old age than witness that massive childish ego admit a fuckup in any possible way. Till then, voting with my wallet and avoiding teslas like plague, novelty of cool tech gadget is long gone and reality seeps in.

"Move fast and break people" would be an apt corporate slogan for Tesla.

> heavily regulated markets

ever wonder why the heavy regulation gave them max safety ratings

The highway institute testing stuff isn't regulated.

They're using startup tactics to produce 2 ton vehicles.

And the Cybertruck weighs well over 3 tons

And is already rusting and able to act as a vegetable chopper.

What better way to move fast and break things?

Unless I missed it, the article seems to leave out details.

According to previous articles, she seemingly accused Tesla of corruption by placing orders to suppliers based on friendship more than quality and price. The safety issue of mats sliding was just one part of the complaints.

The article also states that Tesla never provided any details about her secret personal project, but in previous articles it was said to be her project with "a way to replace flip-down sun visors with touch-based windshield-dimming technology". This included a paid trip to New York which Tesla supposedly claim wasn't approved.

I'm not saying it makes a difference but especially the second part seems strange to leave out when the whole legal battle seems to center around it.

That honestly sounds like a typical corporate smear attempt - vague, hard to (dis)prove accusations with no proof whatsoever presented.

Tesla/Elon have a track report of egregiously lying when it comes to whistleblowers or people they don't like. That includes an obviously fake shooter threat that could have killed one whistleblower [0] and Elon very publicly accusing an innocent man of being a pedophile.

I'm going to side with the whistleblower until proven otherwise.

[0] https://medium.com/bloomberg-businessweek/when-elon-musk-tri...

> The initials CB on a Tesla Model S battery, following Cristina Balan's design input

I don't see it, do you?

Took me a minute as well: look at the left side only. It’s a lower case c above a lower case b. With a diagonal line connecting them.

Right side is just a mirror image.

It's vertical, and mirrored horizontally.

c ɔ

b d

Its honestly baffling how out of porch Tesla has fallen. I remember the times around when Model S first came out, the security of the car was one of the biggest praises it received. It excelled in crash tests, I don't know if this is still the case, but recently it seems like the car wants to kill you so it can show the developers which process needs improvement.

"it is all about deleting just a bit more than you feel comfortable with"

EVs (ought to) do well because they are heavy, their center of mass is very low (because the batteries are dense and the battery pack is huge, to get the range and redundancy / current distribution), and no engine in the front, so the whole compartment can act as a big crumple zone.

If Musk didn’t buy Twitter and get tech groupthink subscriber’s undergarments in a twist then Tesla would still be a tech darling. His antics on social media is doing more damage to Tesla’s brand than anything else.

Alternatively, his attention being elsewhere has removed the reality-distortion field around Tesla and they are now being treated as other companies would.

At this point, how could anyone even contemplate buying from such a scummy company? ... (not necessarily staff, although you'd have to assume that many of them have bought in the Elon hype and are, as such, complicit).

If branding means anything in this day and age, how can you associate yourself with such scummy brand? As a customer or employee?

I was a fanboy a decade ago. Wouldn't touch them with your bargepole now ...

If you have one - sell it - or get the batteries repurposed into a conversion project.

I bought into it back in 2017 before the marketing facade fell. I was a fool, an idiot and a moron. As an actual qualified engineer I should have looked at the whole situation in detail and read through it. After owning my model S for 9 months I sold it because it was full of quality issues and I did not feel safe driving it on a daily basis especially with my kids in the car. It regularly just slapped the brakes on and it the gains were well overstated. The doors didn't close properly, the trim didn't line up and the windscreen spontaneously cracked when it was parked in an underground garage for 2 days. Charging was a constant nightmare as well because all the limited fast chargers were either slow or busy all the time.

The experience was so bad I went to a bottom end second hand 1.0L Citroen with physical tactile controls only. I owned that for 6 years. The entire cost of the vehicle, the ownership, the fuel and all maintenance was less than the depreciation of the Model S in the time I owned it.

A lot of people are hanging on marketing and hope. That's not a safety conscious decision. It's a bad company with bad products and dubious claims.

Hmm you obviously had a bad experience with your Tesla, I want to contrast it with my experience - I bought a new Model S in 2016 and still own it now. I owned ~10 cars prior (both non-premium e.g. Ford/VW and premium cars e.g. AM/BMW) and it is the best car I've had both in terms of running costs, failure rates and practicality (luggage space, good for family etc). I've now 8 years old, covered ~60k miles (I don't commute in it) - still has ~85% range it had when new and has been back to Tesla perhaps 4 times total in that time. That said, I've heard a lot of horror stories from others re. Tesla ownership - thankfully, I've not seen it myself.

Musk's antics have turned me off the brand a little but based on my experience, I'd buy another.

While I understand the concerns about the company's branding and leadership, owning a Tesla is actually a dream of mine =D

Despite everything, Tesla owners report being incredibly satisfied with their vehicles (think I saw a survey the were happiest?). Performance, innovation, and environmental benefits... Unfortunately, buying one is not within my budget at the moment. It's a goal I'm working towards, and hopefully, by the time I can afford it, the issues you've highlighted might see some resolution =P

People who buy expensive things are more satisfied with them.

That doesn't mean they are objectively better or that is correct.

Edit: an analogy: I have a really nice expensive mechanical watch but my shit $10 Casio is objectively more useful and keeps time better. So that get used more.

Because being dissatisfied with it would mean admitting to themselves that they made a very expensive mistake, and that doesn’t feel good.

Many addicts are very satisfied with their drugs.

Why not rent one for a week and see if you really like it that much?

What innovations are you interested in?

23 model y owner. Quite happy after 1 year. 0 issues Extremely happy

I really enjoy my second hand 2020 Model 3 LR. Amazing car, never had any issues. If I compare it to my father's 2022 Kia EV6, it's still leagues ahead.

> At this point, how could anyone even contemplate buying from such a scummy company?

Sad to say it but Tesla is still miles ahead of the competition in specs (power, torque, speed, range) at the respective pricepoints.

> power, torque, speed

Unless you’re planning on driving on a course, or being an asshole in traffic, these matter a lot less than people think in day-to-day driving

Yeah this. Which is why I sold my turd and bought a shit city car.

The only thing its really ahead on still is miles per kwh, even then its kinda not true. (My renault zoe does 4.8 miles per kwhr, if its warm)

Power, Torque, speed and range have all been bested by other manufacturers, who've also manage to make the bodywork line up properly. At the moment the only thing that tesla do better than anyone else still is: Being shits to staff, and charging infra.

I love the power, torque, speed, and safety of the Tesla, I'm happy to trust it with the lives of my family over a Toyota.

What else can compare at the same price point? + charging network + software feature.

And the dealership free sales process.

Not a fan of Elon's politics. Are the other car manufactures more moral than Tesla? it seems like Tesla is a news magnet.

I hate to say it but I'm still a fan of the car, and experience so far in my first year of ownership, 23' model y performance. TBC

But it's far behind in safety, comfort, ergonomics, quality, privacy. So we need to chose what is important to us

Tesla is still ahead of it competitors in safety [1][2].

Can you elaborate on what you mean by privacy?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe#Safety

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3#Safety

Maybe referring to safety disadvantages was unfair then, thx.

I just had the Cybertruck Finger 'Guillotine' in mind. And the cases of things slipping under the accelerator pedal, blocking it and causing safety issues.

For privacy I had this report in mind where Tesla workers shared private images recorded by a customer car[0]

[0] https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...

With the exception of range, those specs generally don't matter unless you bring your car to the track.

Well, ok, they matter if you like to find ways to drive more aggressively and unsafely.

I don't drive, and I've not looked for a while, but just from the car stuff I see on YouTube, surly Hyundai are getting pretty close?

Yes, Tesla are not streets ahead anymore in range. The infotainment is still widely considered to be best but other manufacturers are improving and do well on other metrics which may balance it up for you.

There are also a lot more reasonably priced cars from other manufacturers - depends where you live but there's a lot of choice in Europe/UK now.

> power, torque, speed,

People still care about that?

I'm German, we have Autobahns where you have two choices, either a sustainable speed of 120 km/h and more on long range, or you waste your time stuck behind 80km/h trucks.

I thought it was 3, the left lane was 160+? ;)

More seriously, what car can't do 130km/h sustained?

Range, sure, that's important on electric cars, but the rest? It's been a loooooong time since I heard people really care about that. This isn't the 70ies, where you were sailing the road in your 2CV and hoping for tailwinds.

> Ultimately, Ms Balan says, she has doggedly pursued the case for so long because she wants to prove her innocence to her son.

This... does not make any sense? Like, I don't even know about this case, but it's kind of obvious she was let go because Tesla didn't like to hear what she had to say? Why would her own son of all people think she was guilty?

The sentiment is: I don't want to die and having my son read in the news or be told by others that his mother was a thief.

It makes tons of sense.

Ok that's fair.

>"I want to clear my name. I wish Elon Musk had the decency to apologise," is her message to the company’s billionaire boss.

Know this: You will never get a narcissist to genuinely apologize.

The amount of children he has (like George Clooney), even multiple women pregnant at the same time [1]. I don't understand why women fall for it, and assume this time it is different. Though maybe that is part of the package deal?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Personal_life

People are fallible, simple as that. People fall for all kinds of cons all the time. Sometimes they want to believe, sometimes they have their own incentives, sometimes they specifically seek destructive scenarios. I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

I thought George Clooney only has two kids.

I was wrong that one, my bad. I tried to find sources on this and only hearsay that he has more.

Sure, but... it's easy to imagine what an apology would cause: a precedent. That would open the door to a lot more potential issues.

This is also true; apologies would quite possibly be useful in a legal action.

Is this an issue the scale of Dieselgate? Because it seems that's roughly what it takes for an automotive CEO to issue an apology.

But you might get a fat cheque from a billionaire.

How does getting someone to apologize “clear” your name? Heh sounds like she’s the narcissist.

The problem was the driver footwell carpet curling up? Seems like you'd notice it's not staying in place long before it gets stuck under a pedal, no?

Nope. The problem is the accelerator pedal can be telescopic and latch itself under a seam.

You either need to remove the seam, or make the pedal non telescopic.

I think that’s a separate issue. The pedal cover coming loose and jamming the accelerator down is a recent issue with the Cybertruck, the article says she raised the carped issue back in 2014.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com