Why America Fell for Guns | Hacker News Reader

Why America Fell for Guns

aeon.co

9 pointssorokod35 comments

> only industrial nation in which the possession of rifles, shotguns, and handguns is lawfully prevalent among large numbers of its population

The U.S. may have many guns per capita but countries like France, Switzerland, Finland, Portugal, etc. all have huge percentage of gun owners.

And let's not forget this:

"It (guns) insures that the people are the equal of their government whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the governed."

Not sure about that last para in the age of explosive drones.

What's your point? There are people who engage in private drone ownership more or less for the same reasons commonly put forth for private gun ownership.

If explosive drones became legal for militae less well regulated than the National Guard I'd expect school "shootings" could be exciting indeed.

No there aren't. They would also need grenades and RPG warheads, which aren't readily available.

I can only guess which sort of drones you have in mind, but from my view, the routine use of cheap, hobbyist-level FPV racing drones to disable tanks in the Ukraine/Russia war rather supports the idea presented in that paragraph.

Kinda doubtful "hobbyist-level FPV racing drones" can reliably disable tanks..

"In an interview with Foreign Policy, a NATO official said that Ukrainian first-person-view drones, known commonly as FPV drones, were responsible for two-thirds of recent Russian tank losses."

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-drones-russia-tank-l...

The premise of the article is that Ukraine is not being able to disable tanks using conventional ways anymore because of lack of artillery shells. Also, "NATO official" tells nothing about quality of this report, it could be some clerks opinion.

I did read the article, yes, and I'm not sure what your point is. The existence of better weapons, which the Ukrainians cannot afford, changes nothing about the fact that cheap drones are effective anti-tank weapons, as ISIS first demonstrated ten years ago. Doubt the unnamed NATO official all you like, there are hundreds of videos on YouTube showing how the Ukrainian army uses drones against tanks; it is completely routine.

> the fact that cheap drones are effective anti-tank weapons, as ISIS first demonstrated ten years ago

its not a fact to me, I don't know who is that "NATO official" and how reliable his data. From another hand I rely on common sense that main battle tanks are hardened against direct middle caliber fire, and one need good amount of explosive to produce such impact. Javelin's warhead is 9kg, so your drone need to be able to carry it on solid distance, and this is not the level of "cheap racing drones".

If you are determined to remain skeptical of something which is being done every day, with a great deal of news coverage and abundant video documentation freely available to anyone who spends five minutes looking for it, there is nothing I can say that will help you. Have a nice day!

I challenge your statements about happening every day and great deal of video documentation.

https://xkcd.com/1053/

https://old.reddit.com/r/combatfootage is a good place to start.

Every day. You could also search reddit for the keywords "turret toss".

There's also zillions of youtube compilations that should be trivially findable. eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=970c-takyAs

> There's also zillions of youtube compilations that should be trivially findable. eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=970c-takyAs

that video is 1h long, on which timestamp "hobbyist-level FPV racing drone" disables tank?

I haven't even watched it, I was just so certain that there would be.

Just from scrubbing through and looking for the usual Betaflight OSD overlay, look at 26:30.

that target doesn't look like a tank. Also not clear if it was "hobbyist-level FPV racing drone".

Here's another video from googling "turret toss fpv"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbOnph18GL8

If you think that looks like a high-level military drone, you're really reaching. You can see the coathanger wires at the front that set it off.

They always look like something manufactured in a basement. Which they are.

> Here's another video from googling "turret toss fpv"

there is one case of "disabled" tank there at the end, others cases got footage cut and its not clear what happened after explosion, but looks like drone hit into open hatch in that case as very visible on video. This is another weakness in this approach: RPG-7 may not cut it against modern tank, you need some more modern, powerful and probably heavy warhead to penetrate reactive armor + regular armor.

> They always look like something manufactured in a basement. Which they are.

They were building own large drones from scratch from the beginning of the war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R18_(drone) so I think discussion should be if "A largish 7" drone"(from your other comment) is widely available on civil market, which can carry 1kg payload with solid range(5-10 miles?). If such drones are available (I am not expert in this), then I assume civilians can build weaponized platform base on them. But looks like Ukrainians were forced to build their own thing.

Like I said, do some googling for yourself if you're interested.

There are a LOT of videos I've seen on reddit of tanks getting hit in the space between the turret and the base which sets off the ammo in the autoloader, with the expected effects.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/18s035v/new_turret...

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%253Areddit.com+turret+t...

> https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/18s035v/new_turret...

this is exactly case from previous video when drone hit open hatch.

I watch relevant videos, and I definitely don't see LOT of videos when drone destroys tank. This is actually first case I ever seen in my recollection.

It hit the turret, tank went kaboom. The Russian was standing in the hatch but the drone hit below that.

The tank would have went kaboom even if the hatch was closed.

I've see at least 50 videos like this, some being compilations with lots of tanks. Usually they target the rear of the tank at the bottom of the turret like in that video.

Comments on reddit say that is where the autoloader/ammo is inside.

Trust me, these videos are common. Here's another.

https://old.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/18mg6...

And here's a bonus youtube video about how they train, with water bottles strapped under the drones to simulate the warhead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bt1DBEvH_0

https://youtu.be/2DGs2bed-Po&t=426

Keep watching, there's more than one in there.

Today's one

https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1c6jn3r/ukra...

Here's a close up of one of the drones caught in a net.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraina/comments/1b7x09k/%D0%BC%D0%...

Doesn't look quite like a MQ-1 Predator, does it...

You also need RPG warheads and cable ties, which kinda makes the drones not really hobbyist level anymore.

I am more concerned that rpg weight and range add more requirements beyond "racing drone".

There's also many videos of the Ukrainian drone factories with 3D printers making parts for them.

I remember one video panning around in a basement with literally thousands of drone frames stacked up.

They look exactly like basic hobby drone frames and the videos even show the same Betaflight OSD as any FPV hobbyist would recognize.

I don't know why you are so reluctant to believe it despite the kazillion videos out there.

A PG-7VL Single-stage HEAT RPG warhead is 730g of explosive. So just the warhead end is prob 1kg. It's not going to maneuver well but a large 7" drone can carry that.

>The U.S. may have many guns per capita but countries like France, Switzerland, Finland, Portugal, etc. all have huge percentage of gun owners.

They also regulate and restrict guns to a degree that would be impossible in the US. And have cultures with social cohesion where rights are understood to confer responsibilities - again, impossible in the US.

>"It (guns) insures that the people are the equal of their government whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the governed."

They do no such thing. The American government has shown absolutely no compunction whatsoever about putting the boot to their citizens heads whenever it likes, be it through illegal domestic surveillance, plutocracy, experimentation on its own citizens, endless unpopular wars, unjust incarceration or a militarized police force that all but robs them openly and hunts them for sport. Indeed, recent history even demonstrates that many American gun owners will welcome authoritarianism with open arms (pun intended) so long as the boot doesn't come down on them.

Guns are not a substitute for a well informed, engaged populace, and the fantasy that guns equal liberty is poisonous to society. The government fears a well informed, engaged populace. It does not give one single rat fuck about the pistol you keep under your pillow.

"The prioritisation of individual gun rights in the US over community safety has become a danger to innocents. Americans are locked in a self-perpetuating arms race that makes all of us only less safe. The exceptional gun culture of the US demands a critical reassessment of the nation’s priorities and policies to ensure a safer future – one in which it’s known for something other than guns."

Great article.

In a country in which tens of millions of people own guns, public safety becomes a personal responsibility, and so individuals often decide that it is in their best interest to protect themselves by buying a gun. This desire to be protected against those who have guns by getting a gun, multiplied across millions of people, has resulted in an arms race that makes everyone less safe.

Reads like a runaway feedback loop.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Because guns won the Revolutionary War?

You should read the article before commenting.

I did… the core of any discussion about per capita gun ownership numbers in the country starts there.

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