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Comment by neilv | Hacker News Reader

The HTML title starts "The Landlord-Friendly...". It really depends on the landlord.

I like the idea of solar, and of backups, and of figuring out how to live comfortably in rentals, and of being mobile, but...

I'm pretty sure that my own real-life landlord would flip out, if he came to the door, and saw that charger box bolted to the wall, and the bare terminals of an Alibaba special "SCREMOWER" large lithium battery pack.

Before he even saw that cabling. Which I think (with those lengths, and tacked up like that) would be an electrical code violation here.

Would insurance even cover a fire?

Also, if there's later an expensive roof leak, there'd be questions about whether it had been caused by installation of the panels (even though no holes were drilled). And is there a liability risk if the panel gets blown off.

And would insurance cover any of that?

Were I in landlord's position myself, I'd have much of the same concerns.

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As a landlord, I would not approve of this tomfoolery in any of my buildings.

Safety hazards I see include: Solar panels on the roof that aren’t bolted dow; I don’t care what wind speed they’re rated for. Wires running from them to the inside of the house not in conduit and not secured. A high energy battery pack not NRTL listed. Extension cords draped through the house permanently installed (within the expansive definition of permanently installed used by the NEC)

In addition running the wires in through a cracked window creates an unacceptable risk of water damage.

That said, it’s a cool project. Just do this in a barn you own not a house I own.

While the article probably doesn’t use UL listed equipment, I’ve found that equipment exists that does such as eg4. They run 48v which makes it legal in addition to being Ul listed. It’s typically the installation between solar panels and power inverter/converter that needs to be up to code.

There is also the risk of lightning hitting the wires and causing damage indoors.

"Just do this in a barn you own not a house I own."

Someday we'll wonder why we thought it was a good idea to make the need for shelter into an investment vehicle. Until then, I hope people use your properties as they see fit.

there's nothing wrong with paying someone else to maintain your dwelling and dealing with capital costs. people don't have a problem with the market solutions to the basic right to food, for the most part. The main problem comes with the unearned profit that comes from owning land that benefits from improvements made by others.

tldr: land value tax and less restrictive zoning yesterday

There are a lot of people that can afford to rent a house, but would not qualify for a mortgage to buy a house. If houses were not available to rent, there would be plenty of people unable to live in a house.

I'm in a fortunate situation where my landlord is not a slumlord. When things need looking into, it gets taken care of in a timely manner. I do not have any issue with someone choosing to have this as a business.

> the need for shelter into an investment vehicle.

It's likely the shelter will be on this earth longer than I will? We didn't make it that way, it is that way.

That fact alone doesn't make it into an investment vehicle.

There's a set of circumstances that make it so. Low interest rates, being able to use leverage (borrow money, buy a house then rent it out), and higher-than-inflation price increase of houses.

The GP's statement doesn't at all suggest that they're looking at this property as an investment vehicle; The house could be ROI-neutral and its owner would still not like to see it burn down from uninspected, unsafe electrical work.

Your rather carefully worked comment is being downvoted already. I agree with you, but I think that here, plenty of people have the dream of early retirement.

Don't get me wrong, I like that dream too. I just have my thoughts about the current housing market, which to me has aspects of an investment market.

As a landlord how does one stop people/tenants using "under rated" extension cords ? and therefore causing a fire.

How does one stop tenants using "dodgy" chargers to charge their electric bike or whatever, and the battery bank causes a fire.?

Does your insurance cover these situations???

You can't stop it. You can spot it when happens and ask them to fix/remedy. Remind them of lease terms, etc. And make sure you have good insurance.

I can't even stop my family that lives with me from overloading crappy extension cords; most people, including my tenants, don't know enough to avoid overloading extension cords. Frankly, all extension cords with a NEMA 5-15 or 1-15 plug should be required to either be rated for 20A, or include over-current protection; and the fuses should be shaped to prevent you from putting an over-current fuse in the fuse holder. But alas it doesn't work that way in the US. (It does in some countries).

That said, I drive by all my properties periodically, and my property manager does annual walk through; large battery banks, excessive extension cords tacked to the walls, and solar panels sitting on the roof with wires run through a window would all get flagged in such a walkthrough, any my rental agreements allow me to require the tenant to correct unsafe conditions, which all of those are.

And I do have good insurance. There's a pervasive believe on HN that you can't get insurance that covers variations of not-to-code, not-properly-permitted, and/or not-done-by-licensed-electrician electrical installations. There very may well be insurance that excludes these things, but its easy to get insurance that covers those things, and mine does. If my tenants do dumb-ass stuff that burns the building down, I'm covered, even if that dumb-ass stuff involves electricity.

My question for you if you are a landlord at what price would a battery and solar system would make it profitable for you to install and then sell the electricity to the tenants. With the slowdown in ev cars as well as battery production increases as well as steep fall in solar wafer prices I think we are likely to see a big surge in home battery installations in the next 2-3 years.

This depends on the interest rate. Today there is a huge 30% federal tax credit that would take 1/3 off of any such installation. That said, the tax credit is still not enough to cover the price increases due to inflation and interest cost of financing a system. I spent a large amount of time trying to make this work this year, and it just feels foolish. You'd be buying really expensive energy just for the novelty of saying you have solar.

This. I had this grand plan to convert (almost) everything to electric and then install solar but it would take roughly 16 years to pay back the solar install based on our current electricity bill. Then I’ve tried to rationalize it based on added resale value, which, where we’re located, might command a small premium to the install price, but even that seems questionable and we don’t have any plan to move.

It seems like there are two justifications for solar if you’re on the grid. Either you want to do right by the environment (totally good, though very pricey, reason to do it!) or your electricity costs are very high. If there are others I’d love to understand them. Maybe if you’re a prepper (not making fun) then that’s another reason.

My FIL had a 10kw natural gas generator installed, which is negative ROI. He could have gotten solar with battery backup for a positive ROI.

Your comment nicely demonstrates the pitfalls of looking at everything through a financial lens. The point of backup power isn't as a financial investment, but rather providing your personal convenience/comfort/protection. So yes, buying a generator is spending money.

Financially, most likely he could have an even higher "ROI" with a much smaller solar battery (sized for the daily use of time shifting), plus a generator for long term outages. Unless your grid rates are such that you can buy electricity off peak, charge the battery, and then profitably sell it back to the grid (effectively operating your own small time distributed grid storage), sizing a battery to provide for multiple day outages is cost prohibitive.

The point of adding solar is you don't need a battery sized for multiple day outages, just enough to get you through the night. And instead of a generator which you need to spend money to maintain every year and otherwise just depreciates, you get solar panels which make you money every day.

If you have net metering, then buying a sizeable battery bank is in the same category as buying a generator - a depreciating asset mostly going unused.

If you don't have net metering, then you get bitten by needing to massively oversize your solar array to still fill the batteries on the worst case dim winter days, so that you can make it through the next night (likely powering necessary heating loads). That overproduction is then wasted on peak days unless you can find something clever to do with the excess electricity.

I'm sure there are other scenarios with time-varying electricity rates, but I'd think that calculation would be much closer to general time shifting with the backup power as an added benefit, rather than revolving around the backup power.

I think it would be interesting to consider partial or hybrid solutions, which may vary by climate zone. I.e. a solar battery setup that can cover typical day/night cycles with a tuned amount of excess, with some "survival" mode where you conserve battery charge for longer outages.

You'd need some pre-planning to segregate different circuits to do partial transfers and/or some smart appliances which can operate in reduced power modes. In the survival mode, maintain a critical baseload of lighting and food storage, perhaps even with some freeze-proofing heating mode that does not hit regular comfort targets. Use high-load equipment only when there is excess solar input beyond what is needed for battery maintenance etc.

You could also provide the right kind of exterior input to allow a portable generator to be added to the system in an emergency situation. This could support higher peak loads or recharge batteries when solar input is insufficient.

No heating loads, it's a natural gas furnace. Loads are just lights, furnace blower, and other ancillary loads.

It's not exactly the same as just adding battery backup, because the marginal cost of adding battery backup to a solar inverter is far lower than getting an inverter for just backup purposes, and solar allows a smaller battery.

Someone on a forum I'm on has a solar setup because they have poor grid reliability. Solar + battery + transfer switch provides them with good availability.

It's way easier to capacity plan with a fuel based generator though. My 35kW generator can go at least several days on a 500 gal propane tank, regardless of weather. Potentially indefinitely if propane delivery is available, but I lose phone service when the power is out beyond 4 hours, so I'd have to venture out to get signal to call, and if power is out for more than a few days, the weather is probably pretty bad and delivery may not be available.

With a solar + battery system, handling potential multiday outages, I'd be concerned about my winter where there's less than 9 hours of daylight and it's often mostly overcast, and I'm running my heatpumps to warm the house. But if I have solar/battery capacity to make that work, I'm going to have way too much capacity for most of the year.

Solar + battery for grid backup makes more sense in places with shorter duration outages and were peak electricity use is in the summer rather than the winter.

Good point on grid reliability. It’s almost like our grid is too reliable because although we probably have an outage once or twice a year it’s so short duration that we don’t even lose perishables in the fridge or freezer <knocks on wood>. But certainly a great reason to do it if you’re blacked out for days multiple times per year.

With the way prices are dropping for solar and batteries I would recommend doing the calculation again 3-5 years from now as with the current cost trajectory specially if it is just 20-30% more expensive. I think even prices for electric appliances will drop as more people start to use electric appliances like heat pumps etc as they will also enjoy economies of scale and labour cost drop as more installers get used to working with them.

It’s a good call. One thing I struggle with, especially given recent times, is that the trades seem like they’ll only be getting more expensive so even though the material costs may drop the tradespeople will eat up that savings. It’s great for those professionals, of course, but as of late you would’ve been better off doing any project “yesterday” that requires a tradesperson rather than waiting until “tomorrow” (perhaps with the exception of when lumber prices were insane a couple of years back).

> If there are others I’d love to understand them.

In the past year or two we’ve had an eight day power outage, five day power outage, multiple 1-2 day power outages, and who knows how many hour-ish interruptions and gasoline or propane for the generator get expensive and inconvenient running it for long periods of time.

Our main limit to how long we can comfortably survive without power is that we’re on well and septic. Without power the pumps for both aren’t running so we have no running water and no sewer. We have bottled water on hand to at least cover drinking, but if we were to just shit in a hole outside we would basically just be dumping raw sewage into our water.

Local power generation and storage is very interesting to me.

The math really isn't that different from "should I install solar on my house". Although I live (and own rental properties) in an area with lots of sunshine, we also have relatively inexpensive electricity, about 15% cheaper than the US national average. Every time I look into solar, the answer is the same: it will take longer for it to pay off for me than the lifetime of the components. The only places around here where solar pays off is where the grid isn't already available, in which case the cost of solar installation often dwarfs the cost of extending the grid.

Even once solar makes sense for the house I live in, its a tougher sell in a rental: If I were to do install solar on a rental, there's the added complexity of "how do I charge the tenant for electricity?". I could not charge them, but have higher rent. But it takes a pretty sophisticated tenant to properly account for the value there, so that would make the units appear less price competitive than they actually are. I could install a meter and charge them the same way as a power company does. But does that make me a power company? Are there a bunch of new rules I would have to follow? What do I do if someone doesn't pay the bill? I'm sure I could figure it all out, but it makes the investment less attractive, which means the price of solar relative to buying from the grid has to be even better before I would go down that route.

(edited for typos)

> how do I charge the tenant for electricity?

Just buy another electricity meter and install it after the inverter.

> Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating the social or political environment without creating new wealth. Rent-seeking activities have negative effects on the rest of society.

If you stop being a parasite perhaps one could afford a barn.

Despite the seeming equality, renting your property and “rent-seeking” are actually not the same thing. Housing requires maintenance, cleaning, repairs, and plenty other upkeep. The value of renting your property is not a result of manipulation of the social or political environment. Your angst is misplaced, though I feel for you. If there’s anything I can do to help let me know

Then give us a way to set something up.

The extension cord "alternate electricity system" as they call it seems particularly harrowing. You had better make sure that you know what the load rating is on each of those cords and what they are going to be supplying (or better yet, just don't do this). Unlike household wiring, there will be no breakers.

The "load rating" on the cords exceeds the total power delivery capability of the system. It has its own circuit breakers.

The manufacturers are well aware of risks, for liability reasons if nothing else, and have contained them in the uniform-electrical-code mandated manner. The system is no more risky than any other plugged-in appliance. We don't need to invent problems. Extension cords are just extension cords.

no they're not. Not when you're dealing with potentially large loads. an extension cord rated for 13 amps with 16 gauge wiring, with a 110v dryer running on it, will cause a fire, sooner or later. A proper 10-gauge, 20 amp-rated extension cord will not.

that this system won't exceed ratings is a fair point, but extension cords are not just extension cords.

Obviously the extension cord you use needs to be rated for the power it carries. Anyone buying extension cords can see there are different sizes. They are well-labeled, and it is easy to look up the gauge needed for its length and what is to be plugged into it. A correctly-rated extension cord is no more hazardous than the same-rated Romex, and often cheaper.

All the appliances mentioned are rated to be used with appropriate extension cords, and cords are sold at retail for such use.

"obviously" is doing a lot of work there. What's obvious to you isn't obvious to the next guy, who's just going to look for the cheapest cord there is.

They're not well marked at Home Depot, you have to bother to look for the right gauge, the cables aren't even necessarily in the right place, and if you don't know jack about being an electrician, it's easy to buy a cheap 2-prong 18-gauge indoor-rated cable for use outside in a wildly inappropriate fashion. No one at Home Depot is going to stop you and ask what you're about to do with the cable.

yes, For people with half of a clue, it's possible to buy the right cable and be safe, but we have to plan for the lowest common denominator, and tell people that extension cords are just extension cords when they come in all sorts of flavors, some of which are happy to burn your house down, is irresponsible.

They're very well marked at Home Depot.

The store brand, which is general most prominent, gauge is color coded: 6AWG - Gray / 12AWG - Yellow / 14AWG - Pink / 16AWG - Orange. There's one exception to this where 14 AWG cable is using orange labeling normally used on 16AWG wire but that's the opposite of a safety issue.

And they have generally have the rated amperage for the length of the cable.

yeah but there's no test that asks if you know the difference between a watt and an amp.

If you're coming from the paint department, how are you to know that the color is material? I just like orange, it's my favorite color.

Not reading the numbers on the label is an orthogonal issue.

My point was gauge and maximum rated amperage are on the label.

This all falls under "it is possible to kill yourself by stupidity", with nothing specific to powering appliances from a battery/inverter. People who take the initiative to set up such a system self-select for attention to detail. It is a lot easier to use the wrong cord with no battery system than with.

You lost all credibility with, "Extension cords are just extension cords."

For any type of generator running exterior to interior would require rated extension cords to reduce fire risk.

The extension cords mentioned are all interior-to-interior. There is no magickal difference between an extension-cord wire and a like-gauge Romex wire. The former bends easier.

The only outdoor wiring mentioned is 48V.

I've run my share of long extension cords and chained power strips, running every which way, in both rentals and owned dwellings, powering space heaters and everything else. One thing you really need to watch out for is the connections - even a good tight plug+receptacle has higher resistances (electrical+thermal) than the cable itself or a hardwired terminal screw clamp. An older looser-fitting receptacle can make poor contact with higher resistance and even arcing, making a lot of heat. And also the risk of physical damage to the cable of an extension cord is generally higher. So do what you will, but make sure you're inspecting such runs often, especially for excessive temperature rise at the ends.

No insurance would. Yes, looks super hazardous for a lay person to attempt.

Ive taught a bunch of in person classes on DIY solar and I would never have published this, its asking people to get evicted or worse.

I should add, mine are all in the context of fringe living... vans, campers, boats, alleyways, etc.

I think the Lithiun-Iron-Phosphate battery is actually not a fire hazard (not nearly as much as Lithium NMC ones - which are quite rare also).

Explaining that to the landlord may not be fruitful however.

They are classified a fire hazard in Canada.

Incorrectly, if so.

Who/what certifies things as "fire hazards" in Canada?

ESA (electrical safety authority)

> Rule 64-918 (1) further prohibits ESSs with storage capacity greater than 1 kWh or utilizing lithium-ion batteries from being installed in dwelling units.

The reasoning for that rule is "fire hazard". There is zero exceptions.

The 2024 edition has 2x 20kWh allowance in a 1h fire proof room spaced 1m apart. And you need a series of fire prevention tools like an extinguisher and such. But that is not yet implemented.

Yeah, that "or" is doing a lot of work. So no NMC (aka Lithium-Ion) at all or LFP or Sodium-Ion or anything if it's > 1kWh. Wow.

I always thought any concentration of power represents an opportunity for things to go off the rails; do you happen to have a citation for "not a fire hazard" that I could read up on?

That's actually one of my bigger concerns with these solar into battery stunts is where to place such a massive array of batteries such that if something caught fire it wouldn't take out my roof or other flamable stuff

LiFePo4[1] is not 100% safe but it's a much safer chemistry compared to the other common alternatives. This is because LiFePo4 chemistry isn't prone to thermal runaway.

Thermal runaway is really bad. Typical lithium rechargeable batteries can't handle overheating without starting a chain reaction: an uncontrollable thermal runaway followed by a literally inextinguishable inferno.

If you short circuit the LiFePo battery it still is going to turn into a welder. It can still start a fire. If you don't short circuit it, under normal conditions it shouldn't spontaneously combust.

1. Note: Confusingly LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) looks a lot like LiPo (Lithium Polymer), however, LiPo batteries are some of the most prone to fire while LiFe batteries are the least prone to fire.

Watch for RedFlow batteries, they are made of bromine liquid tracks which is a fire retardant. They’re big, not as cheap as Lithium batteries but can be charged and drained 100% repeatedly without damage. I’m hoping they can scale up manufacturing and lower pricing with time because it seems an option with plenty of desirable strengths in this kind of scenario.

Thanks for bringing those to my attention, that does sound like something that interests me. The "where can I buy" was notably absent from their website, but some further searching found a comment of someone who did find prices <https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/10/06/residential-flow-batt...> but it wasn't especially the price that made me pause as much as the assertion that the batteries have fluid pumps that must be kept running

Since I apparently couldn't buy one then it doesn't matter but I would need to further understand what happens <s>if</s>when those pumps fail

They have a YouTube channel with some case studies and discussions[1] the channel intro shows high level what the battery chemistry and mechanism is - pumping electrolyte past a membrane and either dissolving or precipitating Zinc + Bromine to charge/discharge. They seem to be making a 10kWh cell which they can stack into a shipping container sized larger cell, and then deploy those to make grid-scale storage, rather than home use. Presumably they have an answer for if all the pumps in all those containers need regular maintenance, but I haven't thought about that until now.

('liquid tracks' should have been 'liquid tanks' in my earlier comment).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/@redflow-acceleratingacarbo9077/vide...

Even if the battery is safe. I would be worried about all the cabling and whatever might be attempted to be connected at one time...

Good video on the issues with extension cords in the US

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_q-xnYRugQ&t=1131s

Yeah, I spent the money on good quality 12/3 extension cords that can safely pull more power than the circuit will deliver and have been quite happy with them. Being able to run a space heater off them is really nice in the winter.

Looking at the video, his apartments wiring probably dates to the 50’s or so. Which would be the norm here. Hard to do worse.

Most landlords here are pretty low maintenance (both ways) as long as you pay on time and willing to bend. Did not blink an eye when I asked to go roof WISP and drilled my own hole next to the cable line. No roof penetration so they didn’t care.

I’m thinking of asking about a weighted panel to cover the 4-9pm PG&E quadruple pricing via a LFP bank.

> Would insurance even cover a fire? ... And would insurance cover any of that? (leaks, etc.)

Yes. Insurance is a contract, and the standard insurance contracts used by nearly all insurers do not contain exclusions for permits, code violations, or things like this. They would absolutely not renew you after a loss caused by something like this, and would probably report the loss to the industry databases. Insurance companies will often try to impose liability on other parties when losses happen, but they don't sue their own customer, as the whole point of an insurance contract is that they are assuming liability for loss in exchange for your premium. (If you believe this to be otherwise, try to find a recorded instance of an insurer denying coverage for code violations or un-permitted work. I've never been able to do so, and would be very interested in reading the case study.)

If you want to be sure, just ask your insurer for a copy of your contact, and read it. They aren't that complex.

The haphazard cabling and use of potentially subpar cables to deliver power is a fire waiting to happen.

I wouldn’t condone this or any variation thereof that violates the NEC, a lot of liability is being assumed by doing this.

I realize not everyone can afford a new home but with the proper knowledge and tools you can make electrical changes to achieve your goals that can be reversed on move out.

I might have previously done things against my landlords wishes but it was done - and removed - professionally. The other option is to talk to your landlord and do it right, making it permanent upon your separation from the property.

I just left a similar comment. We were probably composing a the same time.

Good point about the possibility of a roof leak and placing blame. I didn’t think of that.

Years ago I fantasized about making a transformer designed to pass through a window. One coil on the outside, one on the inside. Unfortunately I don’t think you can split the core of a transformer and still get anywhere near the efficiency

Also more recently I learned that these things can vibrate. Which would not be good for a window.

You’d be better off passing a wire ribbon around the sash.

Split transformers for power transmission exist, but are rare. Here's a 3 KW system used for non-contact charging of electric forklifts, industrial mobile robots, and such.[1] 93% efficiency claimed. Probably not worth the trouble just to get power through a window.

[1] https://www.wiferion.com/us/

Witricity is trying to do the same with electric cars.

You can get flat cables for solar DC wiring designed to pass through the gap in a closed window: https://es.ecoflow.com/products/super-flat-cable?currency=EU...

Yeah at certain points I thought they were trolling.

But still inspired me to perhaps to something like this that bypasses the meter and the city grid, but just a little more limited in scope than running duplicate wiring everywhere.

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