Ford's battery flagship socked by mold sickness, workers say
labornotes.org
labornotes.org
I will say I find the writing a little off putting. Felt like they wanted to rope in every name, company and person involved here.
"medieval hazards" I don't even know what that means but mold is a thing in the modern area too.
Clearly this publication is pro labor unions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Notes), but it is strange that they push this narrative and note how people in the labor union were working in these poor conditions:
"many have required their union workers to build on 12-hour shifts, seven days a week. Despite months of worker concerns, managers waited until early February to take basic precautions against the mold—precautions that might slow construction"
Gee thanks labor unions for helping out?
This article is all over the place.
There's a story here that IMO could have been told, and accomplished the same goals without the internal weirdness of the article sort of pointing back at itself.
"Despite months of worker concerns, managers waited until early February to take basic precautions against the mold"
Doesn't this indicate that the union was raising concerns and needed to push for action?
Mold is no joke. I knew a guy that died after working in moldy conditions. He was old, and pneumonia.
I got no problem with that goal, it's just a strange article to try to do that with.
it's also worth clarifying that labor notes is _pro labor_, not necessarily _pro union_, and especially not _pro one specific type of union (e.g. industrial vs craft)_. when a labor union fails its members, this is one of the canonical publications covering it
But it certainly makes it a poor article if they're "advocates for a revitalization of the labor movement" beyond the the rank and file union choir who would assume the union took action. You'd think they'd want to appeal to others too.
For the record, I don't so much care what the union did or didn't do, my comment was more about the article itself.
> Although Dugan, Shaffer, and other members say their union stewards on site helped press their concerns to management, they say that local and international IBEW officers who visited the facility scoffed at their concerns. Dugan says a local officer refused to file a grievance on his behalf about the mold in January. One worker requested to stay anonymous out of concern that union officials might withhold his future job placements if he spoke out.
This is a labor focused web site talking about labor issues. Not run by any one particular union, it isn't a union controlled web site that is trying to pump a particular message.
It is an article about labor, where the factory, local union, and national union organization, all had some part to play. So this article is covering all of those issues, not trying to be all 'super pro union'.
Union laborers didn't want to stop working, they wanted to stop breathing in mold.
A definition from google "medieval" -> primitive or very old fashioned. The implication is that those running the operation have an old or primitive mindset or safety standards.
What? That isn't at all what it said.
> But under all the high-tech green fanfare, several construction workers, including some who wished to be anonymous, say the site has been gripped by mold and respiratory illness—medieval hazards that workers feel managers neglected in the pressure to quickly open the plant.
They were contrasting the high tech and modern nature of the plant to the medieval hazard of mold. The assertion being that mold isn't a modern day problem. Mold, insects, vermin, and disease were common everyday problems in medieval times that were overshadowed by the more pressing needs around food scarcity and clean water.
Ha, ok that seems really likely now that it has been pointed out.
"Ford's Battery Flagship" - even after reading the article I'm still not sure what this is. "flagship" is used only in the title and nowhere else. Based on my knowledge of Ford, I would assume their "flagship" would be the F150, but this article seems to be talking about some sort of battery factory that a South Korean company is building?
Similarly, "socked by mold sickness" is a weird phrase. Feels like an inappropriate use of "socked" here. If the project is delayed because workers are getting sick, just say that.
The title strikes me as a failed attempt at clickbait, and immediately makes me distrustful of the rest of the article, which is confirmed by the "all over the place"ness that you mentioned as well.
The press release seems to indicate it's importance.
https://corporate.ford.com/articles/electrification/blue-ova...
""FORD TO LEAD AMERICA'S SHIFT TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES WITH NEW BLUEOVAL CITY MEGA CAMPUS IN TENNESSEE AND TWIN BATTERY PLANTS IN KENTUCKY; $11.4B INVESTMENT TO CREATE 11,000 JOBS AND POWER NEW LINEUP OF ADVANCED EVS FORD TO BRING ELECTRIC ZERO-EMISSION VEHICLES AT SCALE TO AMERICAN CUSTOMERS WITH THE LARGEST, MOST ADVANCED, MOST EFFICIENT AUTO PRODUCTION COMPLEX IN ITS 118-YEAR HISTORY""
As a Car Guy, when they said 'battery flagship', I immediately understood that to mean the F150 Lightning: the top-of-the range version of their most popular vehicle, which also (now) runs on batteries. (The Lightning used to just be an obnoxiously-fast V8 truck.) Therefore: "Ford's F150 Lightning is moldy." Ew, nasty!
Finding out that the author didn't intend "flagship" mean the truck, but a factory, is baffling.
The title doesn't actually say anything meaningful.
Google's flagship?
Samsung's flagship?
Apple's flagship?
What it should be:
Google's flagship product
Samsung's flagship feature phone
Apple's flagship iphone
It is obviously an article about a factory that makes batteries, and it is important to Ford.
Makes no more sense.
What they wanted to say was "Ford's flagship battery plant" or something else. Flagship is an adjective unless it's meant to denote a ship that carries an admiral's flag.
> Prompt: I saw a headline titled "Ford's Battery Flagship Socked by Mold Sickness, Workers Say". What do they mean by "flagship", a literal ship?
> Claude Opus: No, in this context, "flagship" is not referring to a literal ship. In business and marketing, the term "flagship" is often used to describe the most important or leading product, location, or division of a company.
> In the headline you mentioned, "Ford's Battery Flagship" likely refers to the company's primary or most advanced battery manufacturing facility or division. This facility or division is considered the "flagship" because it plays a crucial role in Ford's strategy to develop and produce batteries for their electric vehicles.
> So, when the headline states that the "Battery Flagship" is "Socked by Mold Sickness," it means that this important battery facility is facing issues related to mold growth, which is reportedly causing health problems for the workers.
But Claude Opus is a remarkable LLM. Very powerful. Mixtral 8x7B quantized down to 4 bits is also a remarkable LLM, but much smaller and runs on my laptop. I gave it the same prompt.
> Mixtral 8x7b: "Flagship" in this context refers to the main facility or center of operation for a certain activity or product. In this case, it refers to Ford's main battery production plant.
That was generated in 1.2 s. Not bad. Checking the actual article, it appears that is what the article is about. In a world-modeling and text-comprehension sense these models appear to beat many human beings on meaning inference in ambiguous contexts. Quite cool! One can imagine a future where humans without this inference skill can use a rapid-response text model to auto-translate things down to their comprehension level.
After all, this entire discussion tree is a discussion about communication breakdown. It would be entirely obviated if these LLMs were placed in the comprehension path. Then we'd be operating at a higher level of discussion: talking about the referent rather than the reference, so to speak!
To give you another example: if I read "Uniqlo flagship in Berlin is plagued by mold" I immediately understand the implied term (flagship STORE) but if the title say omits "in Berlin" I would try to figure out if maybe there is a new type of mold that destroy... what? Heattech? Pima cotton?
I know what "flagship" means, and I did correctly assume that the article was trying to convey importance of _something_ related to Ford (my first thought was a flagship car model, but after reading the article I can infer it's about some sort of factory). My gripe with the title is that the article doesn't actually explain why or how it is important, and just assumes you will take the "Ford's Flagship..." description at face value and trust the author that it's important. It's unsurprising to me that an LLM would interpret it this way, because you asked it to just interpret the headline, which it did.
However, in _my_ reading of the article, I'm skeptical of the "Flagship" claim in the article because 1) it is never really explained and 2) the article seems to be going extra hard (too hard) to imply this is a big deal by attaching a bunch of other names (Joe Biden, Department of Energy, Inflation Reduction Act, multiple contracting companies, a SK investment company, state of Kentucky) to the project, but again never really explains why or how. It's almost like the journalistic equivalent of an appeal to authority, I guess.
Complaining that "flagship" has to be an adjective unless it's literally a ship is silly.
I have some issues with the title, but not flagship-as-noun.
We think about the technology as accelerating development of other stuff purely through generation: code, images, video, sound. But it could actually accelerate comprehension of text because in many cases its skill at teasing out value outstrips ours.
The future is bright!
- OP didn't say they didn't know what it meant
- it doesn't help improve human-to-human comms to have someone:
-- take up 80% of my screen
-- with a copy-and-pasted obvious take
-- unedited
-- from a text generator
-- that has been RLHF'd to chain of thought
I love LLMs and quit my job to work with them, but this ain't it, or an opportunity to extol about bright futures and stuff.
They said it makes no sense, so yes they did say that.
> it doesn't help improve human-to-human comms to have someone:
It's what the comment deserved for saying it makes no sense. Showing the dumb AI understands instantly.
And the conversation was already an overly large tangent.
No, they didn't
If they weren't saying "flagship" makes no sense as a non-ship noun, then they used the wrong words.
Oh unless by OP you meant someone other than jvanderbot, but jvanderbot is the person that prompted the claude reply. It wasn't a reply to duxup, who didn't even mention the headline.
Given that, do you still believe the huge, unedited, LLM explanation of "flagship" was responding to someone?
If so, who?
If not, I'd like to avoid normalizing spamming long, child-like, auto-generated, explanations of things to prop up straw-men in service of condescending.
A message board where that was mundane, everyday, behavior wouldn't be fun to be on.
I might enjoy it if I think someone deserved it, but I'd still balance that with the long view, because that sort of behavior is extremely corrosive.
I'm not lying. I stand by the claim that jvanderbot was saying it didn't make sense.
> Given that, do you still believe the huge, unedited, LLM explanation of "flagship" was responding to someone?
> If so, who?
Is this a real question? Do you not see how it's a reply to jvanderbot...?
> Is it helpful to normalize spamming long child-like auto-generated explanations of things to prop up strawmen? Would that be a fun board to be on?
The ship comment is just as child-like, and it came first. So while I don't think AI comments are good in general, I think in context it wasn't egregious. If we're trying to filter toward good discussion, then jvanderbot's comment should not be treated as much better than the claude comment.
2. They demonstrated they understood, via note on part of speech and reworded example.
3. You're happy to lie about it. ("I stand by the claim that jvanderbot was saying it didn't make sense")
4. LLM spam is good because it proves what they didn't say is wrong.
I think we all agree on #1, I and the spammer agree on #2, and I alone believe #3, and you alone believe #4.
With that, best to leave it at our interests differ: I'd prefer a forum that wasn't overrun by people making up things other people said* and posting LLM responses to the made up thing.**.
* aka, a strawman.
** aka, spam
And I still say the way they insisted on flagship being the wrong word while using the phrase "no more sense" was a form of not understanding. Doing it on purpose doesn't mean not doing it.
If that's not what you meant by "understanding" then I'm sorry for not reading your mind. It doesn't make me a liar. And you don't seem to have made any attempt to understand what I meant.
And you're doing your own strawman with 4. You know that, right?
1. Type in "I saw this comment on Hacker News:"
2. Hit `>` to start a blockquote.
3. Paste in my entire previous comment
4. Type in "Is this person saying that we should copy-and-paste LLM output as comments to others? Could you explain what he is suggesting I should do if I misunderstand?"
5. Hit Enter
I just tried it and the explanation is right on the money. Not everyone can pick up on human language well, even if they're skilled at other stuff.
You can repeat that with the original sequence of comments as well.
0. Type in "I saw this sequence of Hacker News comments:"
1. Paste in Arrakeen's comment in a blockquote starting with "FWIW I agree with you"
2. Create a nested blockquote with the next response '"Flagship" means important.'
3. Create a third level of nesting with the next response Ford's battery "Important"
4. Exit the nesting and ask: "Does it appear that these people understand what "Ford's battery flagship" means or are they confused by the term?"
And it will correctly detect that they were confused as they said:
> FWIW I agree with you. The title hardly makes sense to me as well. "Ford's Battery Flagship" - even after reading the article I'm still not sure what this is.
See, he does not know what it means, but if he had asked a high-powered LLM it would immediately have gotten him there and saved him some time commenting. And it looks like you could have too! It's really pretty good stuff. Thanks for working on them.
My brain automatically disambiguated it to be "flagship ford battery factory".
Because it is obviously an article about a factory that makes batteries.
Maybe a sloppy typo. But the negative feedback about the article because of this is pretty extreme.
You're right, once is a typo. But the consistent pattern is quite rare in good writing.
Also, you make a good point re: OP's comment was not so much focused on grammar --- they had an interesting observation re: style I'm, and I wanna see I'm familiar with from labour-focused news publications. Which I support!! But, in a sentence, there's a sort of forced first-person, emotional, lengthy narrative that is quite appealing, but you're also not quite sure what actually happened.
Other than that, the article calls the factory a "banner project for Joe Biden", as well as saying it's an "unprecedented" project for Kentucky", mentions investment by the Department of Energy, and also that it is being built for "SK On, a South Korean company". The article seems to be going out of its way to try and imply that this factory is some huge deal by name-dropping a bunch of people and attaching grand sounding adjectives, but doesn't actually explain why. It is, as the GP comment said, "all over the place".
It seems there's a story here about mold that needs to be told, but in the best case this article is just bad writing, and in the worst case it seems like it's actively being clickbaity/deceitful.
I know I'm being pedantic and it doesn't really matter that much, but I stand by my original comment that the headline phrasing was offputting to me.
it's not generally used past-tense, and it's not that common -- but i've heard it my whole life on the west coast US.
It's definitely much less popular than hit by but that's not shocking. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=socked+by%2Chi...
I know what it means in that context, but I would never choose to use that word. It's just not very prevalent where I live.
To help the AI with its clickbait generation for next time: “Workers at Ford EV battery plant marred by mold”, “Foibles at Ford battery plant! Mold infestation takes down workforce”
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/uaw-wa...
'The United Auto Workers union on Friday called on the Biden administration to soften its proposed vehicle emissions cuts that would require 67% of new vehicles to be electric by 2032.
The UAW, which represents workers at General Motors, Ford Motor, and Chrysler parent Stellantis, said the Environmental Protection Agency's proposed standards should be revised to "better reflect the feasibility of compliance so that the projected adoption of (zero emission vehicles) is set to feasible levels, increases stringency more gradually, and occurs over a greater period of time."'
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/uaw-wa...
I'd go further and take a guess that this same EV company is anti-union, threatening them too on some level. Haven't confirmed this, but it fits the pattern so I'd bet it's playing a part too.
- EV hit piece: for sure.
- Assigned to an intern or perhaps farmed out to mechanical turk or similar: almost certainly.
- Written entirely or mostly by an AI: probably.
Personally, have more issue with the automaton-like reactions of the workers. 1000 workers, who are holding fundraisers to help each other find other work, and recover from illnesses, smell mold so strong it "hits you when you walk by the plant, and yet almost no personal responsibility.
Have to be forced to wear masks. Don't just buy bleach and nuke the area into oblivion. Boxes had large Do Not Bring Inside, boxes are brought inside. Obviously illegal behavior. Where's the documentation of provable illegalities? Every phone's got a camera with timestamps. (also a serious issue with the military barracks situation. You went home to this every night? Took years and a Reuters expose? [1]).
However, still sympathetic. "Electrical workers complained to foremen." Objects replaced just prior to safety inspections. Months of mold complaints, largely ignored. 12 health or safety investigations, half closed, half limbo. Must be infuriating working in technician industries. Reuters investigation of SpaceX was basically a deja-vu story. "Bad safety results? Stop reporting." [2] These days it seems better to go to a journalist, than the safety agencies, they're far too financially motivated. "Good for Kentucky business. Die of mold? We'll give you a plaque somewhere, in a decade or two once the money's extracted."
[1] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/02/16/military-fami...
[2] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/spacex-m...
b) there’s not a lot of money in being a commie journalist so this is probably some volunteer.
c) I live in Kentucky and had not heard about this.
d) re Kentucky, this place is wet
Maybe. But the situation sounds unlike any modern workplace I know of:
> Worker complaints piled up until, on December 8, Abel management hired the firm Environmental Testing & Consulting of Kentucky to take “limited samples” for mold. Their report, sent to Abel less than one week later, found seven types of mold inside the wooden crates, including three in “heavy” concentrations. It also noted an “intense mold odor” inside the containers.
> To limit exposure, the report included a recommendation for handling the wooden boxes: “DO NOT PUT INSIDE.”
The author was just trying to convey that these days we remediate mold issues, where as in medieval times mold was just something you lived with because you had bigger issues.
They were trying to juxtapose the fact that the this was suppose to be a modern state of the art battery manufacturing facility with the fact that they were being told to just live with the mold.
Imagine they popped open a crate and it was infested by rats. Would management have just told them to work around the rats?
I'm not sure why this is top comment, it's detractive of discussion.
A better solution would be to summarize your findings, and state that the article was poorly written. 'Socking' the author is clearly anti-discussion, distracting, and not worth the toxicity other than a quick offhand remark to accompany an opinion that talks of the main topic at hand
From my understanding, marine-grade plywoods are more resistant to mold growth, and of course, you could paint the plywood with mold-inhibiting paint.
This is a supply chain issue that needs addressed at the source (supplier level).
There are well known charts that define safe operating environments for temperature and humidity. If you go outside these bounds, its easy to calculate the number of days until an object develops mold.
https://energyhandyman.com/knowledge-library/mold-chart-for-...
There was a post yesterday slamming the CHIPS act for having too much D&I in which they referenced the "huge" costs of forcing construction firms to give full healthcare coverage (and more) to employees. This is a perfect example of how the market does not meet the bar without intervention.
>>> Although Dugan, Shaffer, and other members say their union stewards on site helped press their concerns to management, they say that local and international IBEW officers who visited the facility scoffed at their concerns. Dugan says a local officer refused to file a grievance on his behalf about the mold in January. One worker requested to stay anonymous out of concern that union officials might withhold his future job placements if he spoke out. Officers with the IBEW local and district did not return requests for comment.
Why did their own union scoff at the safety concerns?
https://inthesetimes.com/article/left-wing-union-afl-cio-imp...
The CIA helped them rise to power and retain it while also taking away from the workers.
There is no incentive for a union to care about safety concerns. they have a monopoly.
That's not to say hosing down hundreds of crates with biocide is great, it's not, but, it's certainly far better than what they're doing here...
Good opportunity get to every nook and cranny and etc.
Then you'd have to stop buying from the lowest bidder. Because it turns out sometimes the higher bids are paying for important stuff.
If even they can't, what chance do the rest of us have :/
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-s...
Has anyone thought about nefarious foreign actors introducing biological agents to stymie the build ?
https://www.google.com/search?q=ford%20battery%20factory%20m...
If a slight mildew issue broke out in your office all hell would break loose. All work would stop until everyone was remote and a hazmat mitigation company would be brought in by management after a few emails got around.
Go on, explain to us why these workers should just suck it up.
I assure you, the safest industries in the world got that way because of data-driven solutions, not emotion. Go ahead, get angry from the comfort of your office, yell and scream about the injustices of the world. That's how we got to be so incredibly divided, so it must be the right way.
Anecdotally, my understanding is the flu itself isn't what's dangerous to at risk populations. Its' the pneumonia that you're much more likely to get.