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Comment by lvl102 | Hacker News Reader

For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. They have some of the lowest skilled and laziest labor in the world. If/when dependence on oil ends, these countries will go back to being poor.

Edit: contrast ME with Mexico who is running out of oil. Yet, they are able to build because they happen to have some of the hardest working labor in the world (though not notably skilled). I rather bet on Mexico revival over ME 100/100.

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some colleagues worked in tech companies in middle east oil countries and they confirm what you say. The local employees would show up for just 2h 3h a day, fake some working tasks, and leave.

They is so much money poured down on them that they don't understand the concept of work, to them it is just a hobby.

that’s their lottery win, might as well be jealous of the 60 million millionaires on earth

UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.

You wrote the 40M comment!

Do I win a prize?

yes a lifetime ban! jk congrats!

Switzerland isn't the most progressive of countries (it only gave women the right to vote in 1971) but AFAIK you don't go to jail if you fuck a man in the ass, in contrast to UAE.

Not something that directly concerns me, but I'm personally more worried about restrictions on freedom of speech, but regardless not somewhere I'd be willing to live (I currently do live in Switzerland).

I used Switzerland as an example because of its financial industry. I wasn’t making any commentary on the culture. Presumably if the UAE is the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean, it’s more adapted for that cultural environment and not for what Westerners are looking for.

These laws are also pretty much never enforced in UAE, as far as I understand.

The laws are enforced enough that the British government gives a warning about them for visitors to the UAE.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/united-arab-emirate...

Government websites are known for giving warnings about lots of things that aren’t a big deal in real life. I am basing my opinion on people I know that have been there, plus topics on Reddit, etc. But of course your mileage may vary and it’s reasonable to be worried about such laws if they might apply to you.

>These laws are also pretty much never enforced in UAE, as far as I understand.

They are never enforced, until you become a target, then you're arrested and charged with a list violations.

I mean, we do this too, to some degree. But this is naive.

Why so harsh example?

This one is better: a woman in UAE went to the doctor(gynecologist) and ended up in jail because doctor found out she is pregnant but not married.

In America a black man driving a clean car can be pulled over and shot dead by police

In many American states a raped woman has to carry her rapist off spring to term

In America black people are significantly over represented in jails, poverty, illiteracy, single parent families.

I’m sure the 5 largest western democracies have similar issues

Are there special laws for black people? no, it is not comparable with UAE.

> Are there special laws for black people?

Formally documented de jure discrimination is hardly the only available approach. For example, the term "grandfather clause" stems from Southern states applying severe voter restrictions (poll taxes, literacy tests, etc.) but exempting anyone whose ancestors had the right to vote on a particular pre-Civil War date.

Functionally? Permitted poor/uneducated whites but not blacks to vote without ever mentioning a race in the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinn_v._United_States

"No person shall be registered as an elector of this state or be allowed to vote in any election held herein, unless he be able to read and write any section of the Constitution of the state of Oklahoma; but no person who was, on January 1, 1866, or any time prior thereto, entitled to vote under any form of government, or who at that time resided in some foreign nation, and no lineal descendant of such person, shall be denied the right to register and vote because of his inability to so read and write sections of such Constitution."

Meaningless hair splitting to a middle class black American shot dead for driving a washed car

You should be worried about gay rights: some years ago, a French teenage boy was raped by some local men, and the authorities initially tried to get the boy to confess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_rape has some more examples.

That would be 15-year-old Alexandre Robert, in 2007

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Alexandre_Robert

A number of particularly nasty elements to the response—including that the authorities knew that one of the rapists carried HIV, and had previously segregated him in custody to prevent him spreading the virus to other prisoners, but they fabricated medical tests to the contrary and lied to the boy’s family.

Which country are you talking about?

UAE, obviously, since I was replying to your comment saying you weren't concerned with gay rights in UAE.

Will the world's criminals start storing their money there or did you mean something else with Switzerland of the Middle East?

> The U.S. is the top destination for stashing money illegally, according to a new report from a pro-tax advocacy group.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fact-coalition-report-us-money-...

Start? Uae is a place known for storing and moving shady money. Very few extradition treatys.

> Very few extradition treatys.

Which is also excellent not just for stealing, but also for murder. Half a year ago a German-born Pole killed a family in a car crash and run away to UAE.[0] They tried to extradit him but without success.

[0] https://bnnbreaking.com/breaking-news/accidents/suspected-fa...

That article says he was trying to flee to the Dominican Republic, not the UAE.

The article is from October - in the meantime it turned out he actually fled to UAE. The Polish government tried to extradite him but failed. There are many sources on that, unfortunately in Polish only.

I didn't know that, but I guess that's not too surprising.

Uk is the world’s money laundering capital of the world

Probably not, they'll still put the money in Luxembourg and Switzerland, but they can exchange gold and diamonds and stuff like that from shady dealings in Africa for money there.

If you look into it you'll find that it's a nice marketplace for israeli oligarchs running operations in DR Congo, e.g. for diamonds which Israel exports unexpected amounts of, and you'll also find that the Rapid Support Forces/Janjaweed in Sudan are buddies of the UAE. Unlike Switzerland the UAE is quite aggressive militarily, e.g. occupying part of Yemen.

I find your second paragraph especially interesting, do you have a source (e.g. a book) to get deeper into this?

Been a while since I last had a run through books about this and no time at the moment to go remind myself about titles, but I can give some links to start digging.

Main export of Israel: https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/diamonds/repo...

Local presentation of mining sites: https://en.israelidiamond.co.il/wikidiamond/diamond-mining-m...

Some historical background and interesting sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_industry_in_Israel

As mentioned, reading up on Dan Gertler is a good idea too.

Sudan complaining recently about foreign involvement: https://sudantribune.com/article283888/

If you look into Omar al-Bashir's 'career' you'll likely find it enlightening about the degree of Gulf involvement in Sudan. The Gulf states are really, really good at PR, they can afford the biggest, most efficient firms to run it for them, but there are a lot of books about the colonial history in the region and how trade and economics have evolved over the last century.

The strategically importantly located island of Socotra has a really interesting history, lots of pirates and stuff. Since 2018 UAE is occupying it and lately Yemen news sources have claimed that Israel is in on it, and the US DoD has been asked whether they're there too. Starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates_takeover_...

Thanks for taking the time to reply, really interesting stuff.

UAE has basically annexed Socotra.

Dan Gertler

I just noticed the roll over to comment id 40000000 and came here, albeit 2 days late :)

Think about the fact that education is pretty much free there. They even pay for Western institutions to set up satellite campuses. You’d think they should have the most educated and skilled labor in the world. At some point, you have to realize it’s cultural: they don’t want to work.

Funny you mention Switzerland because they have some of the highest skilled labor in the world.

You’re generalizing nearly 20 million people in Saudi Arabia alone. How this is even an acceptable thing to say on HN is beyond me.

The Gulf countries have more than enough expertise to manage and run their wealth for the foreseeable future. To say they’ll be poor again without oil is simply ignorant of the facts and probably related to the point I made above.

> To say they’ll be poor again without oil is simply ignorant

I wanted to reply "But Sheikh Mohammed himself said so!" but then trying to back up my claim I realized it's false. [0] It's amazing how many false things we take for granted just because they align with our world-view (and make a good story).

[O] https://factcheck.afp.com/sheikh-mohammed-did-not-say-great-...

I won’t comment on culture but it is a fact that the majority of working Saudis work in bullshit government jobs where they basically collect paychecks for free, and actual labor is overwhelmingly performed by cheap migrant workers, no? Or is my information out of date? That’s an arrangement you can’t find anywhere outside the Gulf, to my knowledge.

You have a bunch of weasel words there that are doing some heavy lifting: "majority", "actual" and "overwhelmingly".

It's not possible to run a functioning country (which SA undeniably is) without a large number of people who are at least somewhat competent, at least somewhat hardworking, and at least somewhat loyal to the country. You may be able to rely on cheap migrant workers for the hard physical labor, but not for the planning and administration that makes the whole thing work.

According to https://money.cnn.com/2016/10/20/news/saudi-government-worke..., 70% of employed Saudis work for the government, and according to their civil service minister, "many" of them don't even work an hour a day. If you think they're structured like any other country and I'm merely singling them out with "weasel words" we can't possibly have a discussion.

The oil money printer can hide a lot of problems. A small percentage of somewhat competent people aren't guaranteed to be able to provide for a huge number of useless freeloaders if the gravy train stops. Look at Venezuela for a somewhat similar situation.

You’re right. It’s a gross generalization. But it is based on my personal and professional experience.

Yeah, and I went to Greece, a country with a population half the size of Saudi Arabia, a few years ago and got bad service everywhere. The economic data is also not good.

But I wouldn’t somehow think it’s accurate or acceptable to claim Greeks are all lazy and rude.

>The Gulf countries have more than enough expertise to manage and run their wealth for the foreseeable future

There are all kinds of promises when times are good, that change as soon as the economic winds change. This project is more evidence of that.

If the collective financial portfolio of the Gulf countries goes away, you’ll have much larger problems to worry about.

This project was a side project and always has been. Its success or lack thereof has very little to do with the overall financial position of the country.

>You’re generalizing nearly 20 million people in Saudi Arabia alone

Yes, this is how you compare populations.

How so ? How is hating 20 million people for your view of their government reasonable

> For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything.

Quite correct. I had people reaching out to me saying they want me to contract for Arabic millionaires -- websites, backends, a lot of stuff together -- but every time they demanded time tracking, they wanted to know my physical address, wanted my photo, and one of them even wanted me to install camera so he can track me in real time with some misguided AI-based software.

Each time I giggled to myself and responded something along the lines of:

"While the offer sounds tempting financially, and while I would love to have some tech independence, your offer falls short on the privacy front, and it also contains clauses that can nullify the independence to choose tech tomorrow. I'll have to decline and if you are open to feedback: insisting on face tracking is not how you hire the really good programmers, to which I don't pretend to belong but have known a good number of them".

So yes their mindset is apparently always 10 masters + 20_000_000 slaves and as hard as they are trying, they will not export this culture to anywhere else except maybe India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, China and a few others. The West will not change for them no matter how rich they are.

The Qatari have also obviously paid off various FIFA officials but hey, that's just football.

In my experience of working with software developers in India and China, the ones who are really good would absolutely refuse this kind of privacy invasion. Good developers living in those countries have choice and are well paid.

That's what I said: those who are good no longer accept abuse.

Dubai lives from tourism now. Of course, it was bootstrapped by oil.

It also makes money from construction projects. It’s one of the big reasons they offer residence visas to people who buy real estate there.

I live in Dubai but grew up in the United States. Despite what people may believe, there is freedom of religion here, women aren’t oppressed, and the government genuinely cares about having a good city to live in.

>about having a good city to live in

I don't want to open a flame war, but I visited the city during the Expo and its a highway with a stripe of skyscrapers on each side and slums beyond. It's impossible to walk anywhere. (To be fair, the public transport is pretty good, as long as you live next to the highway.)

When I read "a good city to live in" I imagine something like Vienna.

> It's impossible to walk anywhere.

That is fair. I guess my comparison is San Diego (where I grew up) and Mexico, where I lived all of my adult life until moving to Dubai in 2022.

The city is building a new metro line and improving on walkability as new neighborhoods of high population density pop up. It will still be very focused on shopping malls with AC because of the heat during the summers. Official records of real estate transactions have a data point for "closest shopping mall" for a reason.

> Official records of real estate transactions have a data point for "closest shopping mall" for a reason.

It baffles me that anyone, let alone a bunch of people, would look at this and say “ah, yes, this seems like a good place to live”.

To each their own, I guess.

If you’ve ever had a gun or knife pointed at you, trust me that “walkability” is not going to be high on your priorities of what makes a city a good place to live. The UAE is safer than Switzerland.

> The UAE is safer than Switzerland.

And so is Hong Kong and a few other places. The question is, is that worth the cost? A cost that's mostly hidden from public view and scrutiny?

I actually liked how walkable Mexico City is. It used to not be great but I feel that in recent times it's a much nicer city to live in than Dubai. Of course that's only based on living there for 6 months and being relatively wealthy (that said I'd argue Dubai is also only nice if you have the means).

"I went to <insert any major city here> and there's tall buildings and slums beyond"

Even Vienna has slum-like areas, every major city does. Not sure how that's a knock against Dubai. I'm not even sure what slums you saw in Dubai, Having lived there for a few years there's definitely low income housing in certain parts but I'd struggle to call them slums.

GP knows there are large numbers of oppressed people living in Dubai and concludes there must be large slums.

Less than 10 years ago Dubai arrested a British woman for reporting a rape, that is rather oppressive.

> Despite what people may believe, there is freedom of religion here, women aren’t oppressed

Does this only apply to rich westerners though?

> there is freedom of religion here,

So most of this is not true according to you:

https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-r...

> women aren’t oppressed

and this is all false too?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/03/04/uae-greater-progress-nee...

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