Magnets are switching up the keyboard game | Hacker News Reader

Magnets are switching up the keyboard game

techcrunch.com

34 pointssigna1147 comments

Title made me think these would be keyboard switches in the same style as the "Unklicky" bed-leveling probes on 3d printers, where two magnets are used as a spring + as electrical contacts to complete a circuit.

I figure that making these hall effect based switches is more tedious due to the calibration needed. As for applications though, if the keypress could be made into an analog output, the keys could act similarly to shoulder buttons on game controllers or allow WASD/arrow keys to act similarly to a joystick.

The wooting keyboards have been able to do this for years.

>As for applications though, if the keypress could be made into an analog output, the keys could act similarly to shoulder buttons on game controllers or allow WASD/arrow keys to act similarly to a joystick.

This isn't an "if" they are used exactly for that purpose already. What they can also do is change the length you need to press down to register an input, so you have a keyboard with variable sensitivity.

i had the same thought re: analog input but the more I think about it, the less the idea makes sense.

take the Xbox controller triggers, those have a ton of travel. I don't know the exact amount but I wouldn't be surprised if it was multiple cm. a keyboard switch has single digit mm of travel, usually sub-5mm iirc.

I have a hard time seeing how that could be enough travel to allow precise enough control even in forgiving games like GTA.

they certainly are neat switches though. i'd like to try them out sometime.

The Steam Deck I have laying next to me seems to have around 6-7mm of travel on the shoulder triggers. Looks like these can do 4mm, so yeah I suppose there would be about half the precision.

The tips of the trigger are moving at most 1cm. A key press travel is on the same order magnitude as the trigger. The larger challenge is you can achieve high precision and repeatability on the triggers because of your fixed point of references (how you hold the controller). This is much more challenging to achieve on a keyboard, but also not impossible. We can see analogous situations with playing keyboard instruments.

The same thought about keyboard instruments will probably point to analog computer keyboards getting the most of the analog input through velocity control as opposed to absolute position control. Ie, striking a key quickly vs slowly causing different behavior.

I think the precision wouldn't compare favorably to a controller, but not only because of less travel, but also because of the lack of a stable and consistent grip that you can have with a controller.

Analog keyboards are already a thing. The Razer Huntsman for example. The PS2 (and 3) had analog face buttons despite having pretty shit travel (far far less than most mech boards). For the handful of games that put serious effort into using it, they sort of worked. I don't think it would be super great for controlling speed of movement but it might be pretty good for double actions mapped to the same key like Metal Gear Solid 2 did back on the PS2. Playing modern versions without it feels a bit less natural.

- "If you want to go overboard, you can even create something akin to a macro by assigning multiple actions to the same key, so that a single keypress registers a different action when you’ve pressed half-way down, as you bottom out and when the switch pushes the keycap up again — and maybe another one somewhere in-between. I haven’t quite found a personal use case for this yet, but somebody surely will."

That's horrifying.

https://xkcd.com/1172/

There were electric typewriters that would repeat if you pressed a key beyond its normal bottom.

The UX trend of mapping all functionality of small devices into a single weird morse code hybrid button is pretty much this, but yeah, it's horrifying.

I have caps remapped to crtl on press and esc on release, space mapped to alt on press and space on release and the two shift keys mapped to parens on release and shifts on press.

It's quite common to do at least of one of these if you're using vim or emacs on linux.

"slam any key to continue"

Wait until they add capacitance touch and "taptic engine" to keycaps. You could register different inputs to brushing a key different ways, or add mouse movement to g and h like those ThinkPad TrackPoints. Never going to have to leave the home row again.

for some reason i imagined this applying some force feedback back to your fingers halfway back up the keypress

like if you made a typo, and the keyswitch pulsed the electromagnet to tap your finger on its way up

Of course the real application is analog. Imagine being able to control movement speed in a game with keypress depth.

Or, for the CAD adults in the room, a proper 6DOF tool without needing an additional clunky piece of hardware.

Hall effect switches, because everything old is new again.

When I was into this I 3d printer some quite interesting compliant mechanics as switches since you can engineer whatever response you want. It's possibly to have a fully mechanical keyboard that's also completely waterproof with these.

If you want to see where the ultra of analogue keyboards is these days, then watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv6Rh8UNWlI

It's a completely 3d printed, fully analog, fully per key adjustable activation depth, magnetic levitation, mega RGB keyboard. Absolutly insane.

For sane people there's always the wooting HE https://wooting.io/wooting-60he which by most people's count is the best gaming keyboard money can buy right now.

> you can even create something akin to a macro by assigning multiple actions to the same key, so that a single keypress registers a different action

That's cool, so would this allow for the keys to finally feel fully analogue like, say, a Volume wheel? So that you could change volume more if you press a key further? How many "steps" would be needed for that?

> The one thing you can’t change, though, is the switch’s resistance

so still no saving your weak pinky

I know people have been doing this with movement in video games - on a keyboard it's usually very stiff but on a controller you can nudge the stick and have your character walk very slowly. Now you can press the W key lightly and have your character walk slowly and the harder you press the key the faster they move - much like the analog sticks. I think it's pretty cool personally.

Perhaps in applications like GarageBand which allow the user to play the keyboard like it was a piano keyboard, velocity / volume input can be sensed. Cool indeed.

Yes, gaming is the more immediate application for this, but this could potentially be helpful in better scrolling or mouse substitution - analog is great indeed vs binaries

Would be interesting to see if using electromagnets for dynamically tuning switch resistance is practical. Eg using a fixed magnet to offer a baseline resistance, and a coil underneath to make slight adjustments.

No mention of inductive switches, that's odd! Typing this on my topre keyboard :P

Inductive switches are the same as most other switches. They simply register or not. This is about something different.

>Brands like Akko, Drop, Ducky, Epomaker and Keychron became household names

lolwhat.

Yes, what. They are very well-known brands if you've ever looked deeper than surface level at keyboards.

Which is still a far cry from "household name" by any reasonable definition. Most people don't care about keyboards.

> Akko, Drop, Ducky, Epomaker and Keychron

I've heard of all of them apart from Epomaker and I'm not really into keyboard stuff (despite owning a split keyboard).

I would say they are probably well known if you're always online and into techy geek nonsense. They're not as well known as, say, logitech. But even logitech is probably not a "household name" either. I think we forget in tech how much the world doesn't really care about tech.

anyone who is into mechanical keyboards probably is aware of them. i own a keyboard from keychron for the past 2 years and been excellent. I did research a lot before buying.

Collecting keyboards is one of the dumbest “hobbies” in reddit-land. Up there with collecting knives and guns and “EDC”. There is no skill involved, no physical or mental challenges, no cultural or aesthetic enrichment. Just fucking spending money on things that you will never actually use.

Unpopular opinion around here dude

you're telling me spending $400 to improve the sound of your keypresses isn't worth it?

Not when I can download[1] them. /s but not /s

[1] https://mechvibes.com/

"I don't like this thing therefore it's stupid."

Clearly you've never built a keyboard or shot a gun, there is plenty of physical and mental challenge if you want there to be. I've never gotten into knives but there's absolutely a huge physicality aspect if you go down the self defense rabbit hole there - huge in certain martial arts. But regardless, not everything needs to be a challenge and not everything needs to have "cultural or aesthetic enrichment" (although I'd absolutely disagree on your assertion there's no aesthetic component to keyboards or firearms).

Feeling the need to diminish what other people find joy in is the hallmark of a sad person.

I didn't say building keyboards

Doesn't this go for all types of collection?

It does. I'm saying collecting things (buying things) is a lame hobby.

lol

Assuming I spend half my time at work using a keyboard (probably an underestimate) I've spent in excess of 20,000 hours using a keyboard.

There are very few things I've used more, maybe my mattress? Office chair? My shoes? Not my car, not my bike, none of my 'real hobbies' that I get to enjoy for an hour a day or maybe two on a weekend. And I don't want to get too real, but I've probably touched my keyboards more than I've touched my wife, and now I'm sad.

There are certainly "collectors" who get a kick out of just spending money to line shelves with a variety of objects on display. I also don't understand that. But keyboard hobbyists are typically also typists, who use their keyboards, and try new styles frequently to find the best tool for the job they spend most of their lives doing.

I also spend most of my life with my fingers on keys, and I actually do own a nice mechanical keyboard I bought almost 10 years ago. Isn't the point of these things that they last forever? How come nobody's hobby is collecting mattresses? Check out any "keyboard youtuber". I can promise you they probably own more keyboards than the number of words they type in a day

I'm not into this myself, but at least a keyboard one might actually use?

Sure. I own a mechanical keyboard for work, too. I also own a comfortable mattress and a watch and some plates and spoons. They are not hobbies.

> no (...) aesthetic enrichment

I majorly disagree, despite not having a mechanical keyboard. Some keyboards are absolutely beautiful. You get folks putting stones and miniature figures and what not on their keycaps. If you don't consider that art, I wish I could show you how others do.

I'm not sure how you interface with your computer but most people use a keyboard for that. I'd wager it's in the top 10 most used objects for a lot of people.

I didn't say owning a keyboard is bad.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com