Guide to bourbon | Hacker News Reader

Guide to bourbon

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34 pointstoosim47 comments

A not-so-fun fact about the production of bourbon/whisky is the fungus it feeds in regions with distilleries, due to the evaporation of alcohol from barrels (the "angel's share"). I thought that the article might end up mentioning that, but it didn't.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-whiskey-fungus

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/us/whiskey-fungus-jack-da...

What bourbon would you recommend?

I enjoyed Scottish, Irish and Japanese whisky but never had any memorable bourbon.

I admit I only had the low end (?) stuff like Four Roses, Wild Turkey, Jim Beam or Maker's Mark. Maker's was probably best whereas Jim or Four Roses is absolutely not my cup of tea.

How much do I need to spend? Some amounts in the comments are a bit wild, for $40 I can get a Laphroaig 10yo and that's pretty nice drink.

$25: Buffalo Trace

$25: Elijah Craig

$30: 375ml Jack Daniel’s Single Barrel Barrel Proof

$35: Eagle Rare

$40: Angels Envy

$45: Woodford Reserve Double Oaked

$50: Old Forester 1920

$60: Wild Turkey Rare Breed

If Makers is your favorite, you can also try Makers Cask Strength or 46.

This is coming from a big Laphroiag 10 fan too

Thanks a lot for the list! I will see what's available in my country since I am not from USA but cursory search looks promising.

What you do find in your country, just search it up on Distiller.com or the mobile app so you can compare the rating to the price as a rough ballpark.

Very good selection, from a Lagavulin 16 enthusiast.

Those are bottle prices, not shot prices, right?

Yes

Whistle pig 10 year is good. I’ve enjoyed every Weller’s I ever had. To me, the key is 100 proof or higher. Otherwise, it’s too sweet.

I really used to like Knob Creek but haven't had it in a few years.

The real guide to bourbon is that if you're an average person, you've been priced out of the good stuff.

No way. Bourbon is still very affordable. You’re getting 8/10 bourbons at Total Wine or Costco for $20 - $25 like Buffalo Trace, Wild Turkey 101, Elijah Craig, Old Forester, etc. That’s the stuff even fancy NYC bars will put in a $20 cocktail. The 9/10 are still around $50.

I've been to Louisville for work / vacation a bunch of times.

The "Van Winkle" stuff is not measurably better than the cheapest Knob Creek, IMO.

In many cases it's a hype cycle. It's possible that specific years really are excellent. But it's impossible to know unless you get in at the same time it is blowing up. Once it's been hyped, it's hard to obtain, hard to live up to, and sometimes quality goes down as supply ramps up (although with aging it's not ramping up fast).

The ones you named don't seem to be 8/10 on the sites I viewed. They're also more expensive than that in most places, like 50% more (depends on state taxes). Even $50/bottle is on the expensive side for many people.

Yeah, cocktail bourbons have a lower bar.

You’re going by sites? Even so, on distiller.com, top 2% bottles like Elijah Craig Barrel Proof and JD Single Barrel Proof are 4.3 and 4.13 respectively, when Buffalo Trace is a 3.7. Of course if you want one of the best bourbons there is it’s going to be “expensive” as in $50-$60. That doesn’t mean that the average Joe can’t get a great bourbon for $25 (17 servings). That’s the same ballpark every regular Joe blows on an 18 pack of beer for a football game with friends.

Only a few states have high taxes or poor competition (only gov stores) and that’s not Bourbon specific that’s just liquor in general.

Ultimately, prices have gone up only because it’s so easy for the average person to get a great bottle of Eagle Rare that takes 10 years to make. The demand is there at the price point, it’s not like a hedge fund is buying up stock to hoard it.

Well you mentioned ratings, so yeah I looked up ratings on sites. Yeah, the barrel proof Elijah Craig is good stuff. The typical sale price of that is around it's MSRP - $70. The "best" bourbons are not going to be $50/bottle because the rating process ends up largely in a hype cycle and you see them going for $100+. But there are some lists of the best "obtainable" or "budget friendly" bourbons that have decent options in the $50 range.

Yes, Eagle Rare 10 is a good value for a 10yo, if you can find it around the MSRP ($30). However, it's commonly going around $50. It's also worth noting that the theory is they are thinning out the barrels that are good but not great - leaving the great barrels for the longer aging lines (not sure how true that is for this line). Usually the consistency/quality is all per the place at the lower end, and I've noticed more of it in the mid level segments now too.

Yeah, I get there is demand. The international market is driving a lot of that in recent years. The market is also seeing huge gains in popularity/consumption in the wealthier segments. Hedge funds might not be buying it up, but there are some people investing in bottles like there are some people doing so with wine. That's really only going to affect the top level exclusive stuff though.

But if you have a suggestion of a "great" bourbon for only $25, please let me know and I will check them out. I've found plenty of good mixer bourbons at that level and a few decent bourbons whose consistency/QC was wildly different from one bottle to the next.

I'm guessing you already heard my suggestions of Buffalo Trace, Wild Turkey 101, Elijah Craig, and Old Forester 100, $22, $22, $23, and $23, and near me respectively.

There's Early Times Bottled in Bond, $27 for 1L: https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/bourbon/early-times-bottle...

Barton 1792 for $27: https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/bourbon/small-batch-bourbo...

and Old Grandad 100 for $22: https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/bourbon/old-grand-dad-100/...

Knob Creek 9 I see around $45 for a handle which is like $20 for 750ml too.

Of course, they're no Old Forester 1920, Rare Breed, JD Single Barrel Proof, or Woodford Double Oaked, but I still think they're "great" and is really all one really needs when most people are busy chugging Jim Beam White Label.

I don't know. The Rare Breed looks good. The 1792 Wheat is one I've wanted to try for a while but haven't yet. I've had some of the others you mentioned, but maybe our tastes are different, or the bottle quality was different - I've honestly had great bottles of Rebel Yell years ago, but also some sub par the very next trip to the same store. The inconsistency is ultimately why I stopped buying it. I don't drink enough to just turn the sub par bottle into mixer bourbon and buy another hoping it will be great straight. If I drank more, that'd be a good strategy with any of those $30 bourbons that tend to have consistency issues.

Yeah, the pricing is ridiculous. Any bottle that starts accruing accolades will either sell out or start seeing price increases. There's even a secondary market where scalpers will buy as much of the local supply as they can and resell it. I remember asking a staff member at a Specs store in Dallas if they had any Weller in stock, and he just laughed and said that any time they get a delivery there's a line outside the door before they open. He couldn't remember the last time a bottle sat on the shelf for any amount of time. This is a bottle that has an MSRP of $50, but will sell for roughly three times that.

The best way to do it today seems to be finding local distilleries. Some have tasting rooms or bars attached. You can try out their offerings to find which you like. But it's still not cheap if they're good. The local one around me is about $50-60 and is usually good stuff (batches vary more at the smaller scale). Plenty of decent stuff at the big stores for cocktails or to occasionally try something new (the tasting search and adventure are half the fun). But it's tough to justify some of the prices to try things, and it's not much better at most bars that charge you 25% of a bottle price for a single drink.

Oh, yeah. I hardly drink at home these days, but when I did, my shelf staples were things like Old Grand Dad 114 and Wild Turkey 101. Local can be very hit-or-miss, though. Opening a distillery was a very trendy thing to do for a while after the craft beer market got saturated, and I feel like there were a lot of distilleries selling really sub-par young product because they realized they would run out of money if they waited for it to age properly. For the most part, though, I agree, especially now that it's been long enough for some solid local contenders to get their feet under them.

That's why I especially recommend going to their tasting room/events or attached bar.

On a side note, one local place sells white whiskey - aged the legal minimum of 1 day. But it was also less than 50% of the normal whiskey they sell. I got some just to try it. It is not mellow at all, but it is interesting to try it, and it mixes in many drinks just fine and makes them different.

If you can only enjoy the best of everything, I feel bad for you. Do I like good bourbon? Yup! Do I enjoy pedestrian stuff too? Yeah; I mean I'm not going to let my enjoyment of the best bourbon I've had spoil the fun of a cheaper bottle.

It doesn't need to be the best. Even the decent stuff has gotten overpriced. Decent mixer bourbon is like $35/bottle and the decent straight stuff tends to be about $50/bottle. The prices vary by state due to taxes and stuff of course. But $50/bottle is getting steep for many people.

The off flavor bottom shelf stuff doesn't interest me - I still consider it overvalued for what you actually. An iconic example of this for Scotch would be Old Smuggler. I'd rather drink my homemade beer, wine, and mead - dirt cheap and usually good stuff.

Excellent article. But why spend money on bourbon when you can buy the cheapest whiskey on the shelf, mix a bunch of light molasses in, and have a drink that's at least as good?

Joking aside, I'm looking forward to reading the Irish Whisky guide linked there.

Does anyone have an equivalent guide for wine please? I'm trying to get into different kinds of wine, recognising the grapes and regional strengths.

Vivino is a good resource

I lived in New York for a couple of years. American food products in stores are, on the whole, a tremendous disappointment. Everything from bread to chocolate just tastes worse than in Europe.

My highly scientific verdict is that there are only two truly good industrial alimentary products made in the United States: bourbon and clam chowder. It could be an interesting experiment to live on only these two.

Was that a while ago? Because upscale supermarkets have really caught on in the last ~10 years or so, and you might be surprised at how good a lot of the stuff is.

My local supermarket - totally agree - is on average worse than average European fare. But if you travel a few towns away and go to the more premium ones like Mariano's or Whole Foods, it's a lot better.

Other places I shop for really good food are definitely somewhat more foreign to be fair: Seafood City, Mitsuwa, H-Mart, Brookhaven. (That last one is my favorite, and is heavy on eastern European foods like tea, dried fish, wine, cheese, beer, etc.)

Other honorable mentions: Harris Teeter, Trader Joe's, Wegman's, Fresh Market.

Agree, I am a bit tired of this bread and cheese only taste good in Europe. It’s like they just went into a store and got Wonder bread and some Kraft singles. My local H-E-B has a bread aisle as long as a football field and a whole corner bakery dedicated to making some fresh (excellent tortillas). Then I could go to Central Market and buy any cheese from all over the world.

Some other good things in the US:

* Real slow-cooked barbecue is excellent

* Salmon from the Pacific Northwest is great and the fresh stuff is seasonal.

* Beer and wine have improved a lot and are quite good in some places. TBH I prefer beer here in Oregon to the places I lived in Europe, Austria and Italy.

I wish that salmon could end up in more places.

American seafood is pretty poor compared to Europe and other continents. Its always so expensive and hard to get. Local fish is really expensive. Local California prawns price are insane. Even that salmon will be 30/lb.

We also don't have a good culture if eating it general.

> Real slow-cooked barbecue is excellent

Yeah, but that's not commonplace in New York - but you're not wrong!

Also, American-ethnic foods are really good:

* American-Italian

* American-Asian

* American-Mexican

But yes, Europe has better wine, cheese, bread, and chocolate. But hey, we've got great bourbon! And our wine and cheese are getting much better! But our bread is cake (literally, in Europe) and our chocolate is garbage in comparison. There's really no point consuming the calories for American chocolate.

> Europe has better wine

California wine is world class. You can’t say Europe is definitively better when you have phenomenal bottles coming out of Napa or Paso Robles like Austin Hope.

Then there’s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)

Correct - but something I would say is that by and large you can get 'pretty good' wines for cheaper in Europe, or at least where I was in Italy.

Agree, I was reading recently that it was maybe due to all the European vineyards that have owned their land for a long time, and thus don't need to pay the investment overhead that comes with a lot of upstart California operations. Still, there are many decent ~$10 options from CA like Bogle.

We used to love to bring guests and friends from the US to have a look where my mother-in-law worked at the "agricultural high school" that sold wine and cheese they made. It was actually pretty good and was quite cheap

https://www.ducabruzzi.edu.it/pagine/azienda

This. My favourite red is from California. I'm european.

> It could be an interesting experiment to live on only these two.

And a painful death, most likely...

Anyway, there is plenty of good food in America. How much you'll find depends on which stores you go to and where they're located, as the cheaper stuff tends to be absolute garbage, but I've found crappy cheap junk foods in European store as well. The worst wine I've ever had by far was in Greece. (I was young, and it was a 1 euro for a bottle, IIRC.)

I wasn’t entirely serious. The reason why food tastes worse has as much to do with nostalgia as with objective factors. Yes, one could buy the most expensive sourdough bread in New York, but can it ever rival the memory of that one bakery in the Old World?

Truly local products don’t suffer this unfair comparison. One never drank a Swedish bourbon or ate clam chowder in Paris.

Maybe this is why Europeans are so attached to regional foods and their name protections. The diversity makes the experience more unique.

> Anyway, there is plenty of good food in America.

How much of it can be achieved without being "unhealthy" for you?

For example, I can think of some good barbecue or burgers or steaks. How many people don't have "portions too big" covered in too many unhealthy sauces/cheeses/etc.?

Say something basic is 600 calories. To make it good with mayonnaise, butter, cream, cheese, etc. you can quickly double the entire caloric intake for the meal.

You are either going to make a dish "good" through its texture (meat typically), spices, or savoriness/richness from fat of some sort, no?

> a tremendous disappointment

You were expecting better? Every European who comes to the US complains about the food. Edit: Now that I think about it, so do a lot of the Indians.

It's been a trope for a long time.

If you can find it, give a watch of the episode "The Tick vs. Europe":

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0723382/

ETA: found it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfKP7fowinQ

> Edit: Now that I think about it, so do a lot of the Indians.

The US Vegetarian cuisine isn't anything to write home about, so that's not surprising.

Since you seem to have some broad international experience, outside of the subcontinent, which countries have consistently good vegetarian cuisine?

Well, India, obviously.

I've heard good things about south-east Asia, Thailand is pretty good supposedly, but I haven't been there.

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